Les Christie’s Response to “Why Church Kids Must Go Bad”
By Les Christie Posted on April 20 2010
My book, When Church Kids Go Bad, was written to help youth workers make our youth ministries safe places for hurting kids. We need youth ministries that are a refuge for kids to feel both physically and emotionally safe. Places for all kids, and especially troubled kids, so they can hear and see the love of God.
Andrew raises the question regarding the purpose of youth ministry, asking “is it for making and keeping kids good?” The simple answer would be “no.” Our goal in ministry is to have students receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. We want students to be embraced by his love. Because of this encounter with Jesus our students’ lives are changed through their relationship with Jesus. We are all to be transformed; there are many examples in Scripture. Saul, who openly persecuted Christians, became Paul—a changed man. The apostle John, who was a violent and angry man before his encounter with Jesus, had an astonishing transformation. He became known as the “apostle of love” because, more than anyone else in Scripture, he both taught and embodied love. Jesus was able to channel that hate into something good. Our goal in youth ministry is not behavior modification, but it seems to occur when we embrace the Holy Spirit and respond to his work in our life. One of the fruits of the spirit is "goodness" (Galatians 5:22).
Jesus did associate with those in the shadows but he did not leave them there. We are to reach kids wherever we find them but not to leave them there. When Jesus encountered the woman caught in adultery and the woman at the well he did not leave them there.
Andrew also asks if youth ministries are avoiding the bad? We are told to be in the world but not be of the world (John 17:13-16). It is almost impossible to avoid having the bad spill on us. I had a speaker in one of my classes this semester suggest to my university students that if kids want to use drugs we should let them do so in our youth meetings. It’s an old idea but it doesn’t work. I’ve had parents say to me, “I don’t want my kids to have sex before marriage, but if they are going to do it I want them to do it in our home.” To assert that church kids must go bad is absurd. They already are bad. There is evil in all of us.
We don’t need to expose kids to the dark side. It is all around them. In my years of youth ministry I rarely meet bright and shiny students (many of them are covering up hurts). Most of the students I meet are in deep pain because of the bad around them. We need to be teaching kids to flee immorality. Check out Joseph in the Old Testament, running out of a house in his BVD’s fleeing Potiphar’s lusting wife (Genesis 39:6-12).
Comments
From Rikki on April 21, 2010
Les,
You write in the penultimate paragraph as if you believe that Root is encouraging youth leaders to have “sin sessions” during youth group in order to experience God more fully. I do not think that was his aim. “Should we go on sinning so Grace can increase? By no means!” is pretty hard to misinterpret.
Too often in ministry (to adults and youth), we tend to gloss over the bad in favor of the good. We say, “Jesus died for your sins” instead of “God Himself was tortured, beaten, mocked, scourged, spit upon, etc.” We tend “encourage” (“Jesus can help you through whatever you’re going through, all you need to do is pray”) rather than empathize (“I know you’re struggling with such-and-such, do you want to talk about it?”). We gloss over (or ignore entirely) the realities of spiritual warfare because it’s “bad”, or we fear its seductiveness. We end up, whether it’s intentional or not, making church about “being good” rather than allowing God to change us INTO something “good” (as a “Church Kid” myself it is a attitude I find I have to continually fight against).
God can be found wherever He wants to be found—in the “good” or the “bad”. But, in our humanity, we tend to find God mostly when we are at the end of our ropes. We need to embrace those times of weakness, of “bad” as the time when God came down and touched us, but—as you point out here—not stay there.
Ultimately, though, I think the defensiveness is uncalled for. It does not sound like he was commenting on your thesis, but rather on the title of a book on a table at a youth conference.
From Adam McLane on April 21, 2010
Rikki- some background info may help. I made an editorial decision to ask Les to write a response to be published concurrent to Andy’s article precisely because Root used the title (not the content necessarily) as a jumping off point.
If there is fault, it belongs to me and my desire to give Christie an opportunity to respond. The last thing I wanted was for the article to blindside Christie or pit on YS author against the other.
Hope that helps!
From Sarah on April 21, 2010
Les,
You couldn’t have missed Andrew’s point more or be further away from understanding it than the east is from the west.
I hope you don’t think what I’m saying is harsh as I’m basing it on what I’ve seen you write in the response to Andrew. If you had an experience that came from the place of brokenness then you would not try and prove how people must change. I think we come to Scripture and our experience with God with altogether too many preconceived ideas.
I know that what you presented seems ever so logical to you because from personal experience I used to concur whole heartedly. Like Paul used to point out about how people read the Scriptures with a veil over their eyes and as Andrew pointed out in his article about the Corinthians, that is how I was.
I hope that you will come to understand and experience what Andrew is talking about.
From John Mulholland on April 21, 2010
Les,
I thought your response was perfect. I cannot tell you how much this book means to me and our adults that minister to the mostly un-churched kids that we are blesses to share Jesus with.
-John
From Sarah on April 21, 2010
John,
The book may be perfect but as the mother of two teenage boys who give me no trouble whatsoever but who tell me they get sick and tired of all those “lectures” at church school on how we shouldn’t do drugs, have premarital sex, curse, play “bad” video games (and all the setting no unclean thing before my eyes type of stuff that adults like to spell out to the apparently brainless teenagers) what Andrew says rings true. In essence they are sick and tired of hearing about being good especially when they see all the hypocrisy or mere moralism.
Andrew never once talks about exposing kids to the “dark side” in the way Les is portraying. Therefore I don’t consider the response to be a valid rebuttal. Andrew has explained that he was reacting to the title of the book which brought to mind the ideology of how kids are taught to be “good” and not “bad”.
To me when a person has surrendered their will to Christ, as Rikki says, then “good” things flow out of that commitment. The only person I see Jesus raking over the coals so to speak are the religious leaders who have the very attitude of how people aught to be “good”.
From John Mulholland on April 21, 2010
Sarah,
Thanks for your response. I am sorry that your children have heard nothing but empty moralizing. I guess I’m not interpreting Les’ statements in the way you guys seem to be.
Have you read the book? Has your youth minister?
From Sarah on April 21, 2010
John,
I appreciate that. I’m not sure if our youth leader has read the book or not. I don’t know if our youth group leader would be interested because our youth seem to be wonderful. I am with the class whenever I don’t have to attend our other church. I find that the youth participate, have good attitudes and are willing to lead out. In fact they trade off on who will teach the lesson.
There are people who have attitudes against our youth though. They would be the ones who would most loudly “Amen!” the above rebuttal.
Statements like “we are all to be transformed” and ” Jesus did associate with those in the shadows but He did not leave them there” etc. sounds very condescending as though Andrew were totally clueless to the intricacies of any kind of spiritual growth.
I disagree with Les’s focus and think Andrew’s focus is much more healthy.
Based on Les’s response I must admit to not too interested in reading the book.
From John Mulholland on April 21, 2010
Sarah-
This is a very unfortunate situation. Andrew’s comments, “But the title got me thinking: is that what we are really after in youth ministry, making and keeping kids (especially the ones we already have, like church kids) good? Helping them avoid all that is bad? Is that what Christianity is about—being good? Behaving? Being moral? Avoiding all that is bad? Is Christianity about behaving or avoiding what is wrong within us and within the world?” tell me that he did not even read it.
The subtitle, “How to work with rude…” gives no indication that Les is trying to make kids good. The book deals with ministering to these kids, pure and simple.
I find it ironic that you would say, “I don’t know if our youth group leader would be interested because our youth seem to be wonderful. I am with the class whenever I don’t have to attend our other church. I find that the youth participate, have good attitudes and are willing to lead out.” It sounds like the kids there already have the outside of the cup clean.
Are we not to be transformed? Did Jesus not tell the woman at the well to “go and sin no more”? That’s not condescending…it’s Jesus. And frankly, it’s what our students need to hear.
From Sarah on April 21, 2010
John if you read my earlier comment you will see that I mentioned that Andrew did not read the book. Although at second glance he said that the content offers practical, helpful actions. I mentioned that he formed his ideologies from the title. The title got him to thinking about how our youth are typically taught in our churches and I agree with his perspective.
I don’t think he was dealing with the subtitle.
Why would it be ironic since I’m not inspecting my youth for what’s outside their cup and the inside is between them and God? Why would I want a book about church kids going bad when the church kids aren’t going bad? Or going by the subtitle, How to Work With Rude, Obnoxious and Apathetic Students why would I want the book when none of our kids are this way? Plus I already do love them.
“As the flower turns to the sun that the bright beams may aid in perfecting its beauty and symmetry, so should we turn to the Sun of Righteousness, that heaven’s light may shine upon us, that our character may be developed into the likeness of Christ.”
I think you were meaning to refer to the woman caught in adultery. Yes, it would be good for her to not keep on with that. I don’t think Jesus was transforming her by that statement but saving her from further grief. Of course there are times when we are doing blatant things and people who love us should warn us and give us guidance but I find that my youth especially seem to already have a keen sense of what’s right and wrong and just need some love and attention and support. I find that directing them to the Good Shepherd who will lead them and guide them is the best.
“As ye have received Christ Jesus so walk ye in Him.”
From John Mulholland on April 22, 2010
Sarah,
“I don’t think Jesus was transforming her by that statement but saving her from further grief. Of course there are times when we are doing blatant things and people who love us should warn us and give us guidance but I find that my youth especially seem to already have a keen sense of what’s right and wrong and just need some love and attention and support.”
I’m not sure that I understand this. Care to explain?
From Danny Garrison on April 22, 2010
Hey Andrew, Les, Sarah, and John,
After reading both sides of this discussion, as well as the discussion in the comments, there is some fundamental points of agreement that we all need to consider:
1. Most teens these days are rough. They struggle with sin and doubt
2. Some kids have managed to live blameless lives in the world and were not touched by sadness and sin through themselves or family
3. Most kids from group 1 want to be and will pretend to be in group 2. The group 2 kids are the poster children of Youth ministry and are an encouragement to every Youth worker.
4. Jesus loves all of these kids.
As you stop to interact with youth you can discover how much they are hurting and confused, and how they all act out differently because of their hurts. After you meet them in their sadness, build that trusting relationship they need, hold their hand and direct them to Christ. No one wants to stay in “the valley of the shadow of death…”
But what do you do if you have a group of perfect kids? I would say you need to reach out more. If your group of kids does not struggle with sin, then they have friends at school who do. Even if they do not interact with the “rough” crowd, you have to ask yourself “is this a healthy way to treat non-Christians? Is that how Jesus treated the Gentiles?”
I’ll admit, I am an introvert, so getting to know and minister to the rough kids is a challenge, but God has called me to do the challenging things.
So, all rambling aside, I am eager to read this book as I press on and go outside my comfort zone to relate and love my Youth, good and bad alike.
From Sarah on April 22, 2010
Danny,
Many people would look at the kids in our youth group as bad and in fact I’m told how bad they are from some church members. They relate to other kids in the world all the time. My husband and I have pastored a biker church with tweakers and what many would consider the scum of the earth. The sign on the door says “Sinners Only”. I hardly know of anyone who hasn’t been touched by sin or sadness. The kids in our group are real and the furthest thing from pretend I’ve seen. Not only can they react with the rough crowd they might be considered the rough crowd. Nevertheless I don’t see them that way. I point them to the Shepherd of their souls and amazingly He’s pretty good at what He does.
It’s rather a no brainer to say people don’t want to stay in the shadows but I’m beginning to feel that a lot of people have never actually been broken and found the righteousness of Christ or they would know the uselessness of harping on how people need to change. If a person has committed themselves to Christ and abide in Him they will grow and change - just not in our time or in our way.
I can see that if people don’t already understand where Andrew is coming from then nothing I say will make a difference - it’s just tempting to try. I think I need to bow out now.
God bless in your ministries.
From John Mulholland on April 22, 2010
Here’s a wacky idea:
Read the book, the whole book, before you make any assumptions as to what it says. Les Christise has been in youth ministry for a really, really, long time. I’m betting that he probably has some insight that we could all learn from.
The critics here are operating under the false assumption that Les is simply interested in making “better” kids.
Read the book, and then, and only then, cast all the stones you want.
From Mary Benicki on April 26, 2010
I understand the foundation of my faith in Jesus Christ and the gospel of the good news is that we have a God that is more powerful than death and it’s clutches. To me this means that it is God’s work in us that transforms us—we do not transform ourselves. But how often do we try to be our own deliverer? Even as I type this I am convicted of how many subtle ways I live as if I have the ability to transform myself. The fruits of the Spirit, which do include “goodness”, are the result of the working of the Spirit. Because of the Cross (and the resurrection) God has given us the ability to respond to Him. All we can ever bring is our willingness—and that honestly fluctuates for all of us. I think it is important to consider what we are judging as “good”. I have a tendency to judge my own walk with God as if it is a performance. A personal example is a trap I catch myself falling into many times. If it has been a few days without reading my Bible, I start to feel “bad”, like I am not doing what I ought. Soon scripture reading is relegated to something I should do and I miss the incredible gift of God’s written word to me. Recently, the Lord led me to lay down my scripture reading until I started to desire time in His word. This isn’t the first time He has led me in such a way. My conscience kicked in and I doubted what I heard (even though I knew it was the Lord). Then came the guilt that I am not doing my part in my relationship with God. Dare I believe that fasting from God’s word could be “good”? That seems blasphemous. I honored that guidance and have been blessed by it. I am craving God’s word again. I WANT to read the Bible and I am seeing it anew. I find myself longing to be in the word. All this is to say that portraying Christianity as anything less than a dynamic and intimate relationship with our creator is going to fall short. “Goodness” (God’s definition) is God’s work in and through us, despite ourselves. We have a God who continually meets all of us in our darkness. When and how He determines to free us from our sinfulness is His business to orchestrate. It is our business to respond. That is what the youth need to know. It is what we all need to know and remember (and re-remember).
Mary
From lola on May 08, 2010
I totally agree with mary benicki.
It’s a total relief to know we are in god’s hand.
I would always feel guilty, and i still do sometimes , but not as much, because it is incredible to be really and only led by him.
True, then reading bible, praying, is done with an entire joy, free of guilt duty, and fear of hurting god.
He then reveals what has to be revealed, on time, and i don’t fight with my sins anymore, knowing god is taking care of it.
Mark my words, i don’t say i let myself live in sin, but i know we all struggle the same way, for the same things, and trying to change myself is an illusion.
He knows my downfalls, and knows i sin all the time, because even the smallest lie is a sin, but then i don’t beat myself for this, because i know he is working all the time.
Sometimes , he just reveals how bad i am, and then i have to admit, the work is way too hard to accomplish for a human, but not for god.
excuse me for my english, i’m french.
From Lance on May 13, 2010
is it this hard to understand what this post was supposed to be about? A good article followed by some thoughts from the author whose title (not even the book or premise of the book) was written about….it was one man who was inspired to write and then an extremly responsible company who gave the author a place to share his thoughts in regards to the article. I dont know that Mr. Christie’s response was meant to be a rebuttle as much as it was thought to be…i cant seem to figure out if this conversation is healthy or just an opportunity for Chrstians to snipe at each other in the guise of “a healthy dialogue.” It comes across as the latter, and I pray that we simply go back, read again, and understand the context within which both articles were made. Thank you.
From Adam McLane on May 14, 2010
@Lance- I explained the purpose behind this article in an earlier comment.
==
Rikki- some background info may help. I made an editorial decision to ask Les to write a response to be published concurrent to Andy’s article precisely because Root used the title (not the content necessarily) as a jumping off point.
If there is fault, it belongs to me and my desire to give Christie an opportunity to respond. The last thing I wanted was for the article to blindside Christie or pit on YS author against the other.
==
From the authors perspective, they viewed it as the former, not the latter.
From lance on May 14, 2010
hey adam,
thanks…i realiza the intent, I was referring to what it was turning into, not what it was intended to be….i appreciate you giving Mr.christie an opportunity to share his thoughts. Sorry if I poorly and inadvertently communicated anything differently.
From OneManForgiven on June 07, 2010
Lance - I really appreciate your words. There does seem to be a little misunderstanding happening.
-Misunderstanding the intent of both articles.
-Misunderstanding that the articles have created a very different personal response from individual readers.
I myself have greatly enjoyed the articles and the resulting discussion. It was a good exercise for me in a few areas of personal philosophy.
Adam - Thank you much for arranging for both articles. Andrew’s made some good points. And likewise, so did Les’ response. I’ve got to wrestle a little with the different approaches. Especially since they’re not even completely to the same issue.
Lesdrew - Thank you both for writing.
From Sylvia on February 17, 2012
Thank you for shinarg your story. Hopefully this will inspire and empower others who may think they have nothing to give. But mostly, thank you for what you have done.
