You Were Born What Way?
By Shawn Michael Shoup Posted on April 12 2011
He walked into my office, a junior high student in my student ministry – a young man that I had led in the salvation prayer several years ago when he was still in our children’s ministry program.
This was my first year as a student pastor – a novice. A newbie. I thought I knew all there was to know and thought I was prepared for any situations that came my way.
I was not.
He sat in my office and quietly began to tell me that he was unsure of his sexual identity.
This was the year 2000 – quite different from 2011, where Lady Gaga is largely applauded for preaching her “Born This Way” gospel to the masses. Homosexuality, to me, was something that was confined to certain neighborhoods in far off metropolitan cities. Not in suburbia and especially not in my church or in my youth group. I was taken aback.
I did what I knew to do. I asked him questions. I prayed with him. I quoted some scriptures. And I assured him that God has “better” for him.
I continued to be his pastor and the closest thing he ever had to a spiritual mentor in his life. I walked through life with him, but I don’t know that I ever truly allowed him to further grapple with his internal mixed feelings about his sexuality. Why? Because I pretty much tried to encourage him to bury it. I’m pretty sure it was because I didn’t know how to “deal with it” myself. I was uncomfortable with the whole thing.
At that meeting, I remember challenging him – that what he was feeling was not “who he was” and that I would valiantly defend him against any jabs from other students who called him “gay”, a “fag”, or any other number of derogatory names that had been thrown at him. Long and short, I don’t think I listened long enough. I often wonder if I left him feeling abandoned.
From that day on in my ministry, if words like that were used at all. I took a very personal offense to it (and still do to this day). I couldn’t stand to see people hurt with those words. For me, it was hatred at the most offensive level: prejudiced, bigoted, short-sighted, and ultra-destructive.
Homosexuality and the church’s response to it have since then taken on a platform that is larger than life, both politically and in culture at-large. There are guys like Jay Bakker, son of televangelist Jim Bakker, and Christian artist, Jennifer Knapp, who would argue that homosexuality isn’t clearly defined as sin in scripture. On the opposite end of the spectrum are those who stand loudly and proclaim the sacredness of marriage and the relationship between a man and a woman as holy. Regardless, I think our response to the issues of sexual identity in the church has largely created more hurt than healing.
As a father, I hear my daughters talk about several of their classmates who identify themselves as gay, lesbian, or bi. As a youth worker, I have encountered several students who tell me they are struggling with their sexual identity. Maybe more than those outside of the field would think. As a district leader in a denomination, I’ve sat at tables with other pastors and leaders who are honestly struggling with how best to respond and/or reach out to the LGBT community.
How do we? I’m not an expert, but I do remember stories of Jesus sitting at dinner tables those on the outskirts of what was considered normal or acceptable.
Fast-forward a decade. I’m a volunteer youth worker at a local church and my daughter tells me that she needs to work on an up-coming science project with a friend after school. He’s openly bi-sexual. My wife and I decide to invite them to work on their project at our house. He knows that I’m in ministry and even though he’s never been to our church, tells my daughter that he assumes that I already hate him because of his sexual identity. She tells him, “No, it’s not like that.”
Now, before this time, she has already been telling him about how cool our church is, how much she loves going to youth group, and about her personal relationship with God. She’s a genuine friend to him. They hang out at school. They have fun. They laugh.
He doesn’t understand why anyone would want to go to church. His view has been that it is an institutional place with a long list of rules that aren’t relevant to him. But that’s changing. He’s been asking lots of questions now. He’s very curious.
Anyhow, I picked them both up from school, introduced myself, and engaged in some small talk until we got to our house and they started work on their project. We offered to let him stay for dinner, if he’d like, but he declined. They finished their project and I drove him home. My daughter told me the next day that he said something like “Your parents are pretty cool.”
I share this out of a desire to see the church learn to love well. That doesn’t necessarily mean morphing your theological position on homosexuality. But it does mean that we need to get over our fears if we desire to seriously engage with a generation who is growing up in a largely different culture than what most of us are familiar with from the days of our youth.
If I could do anything differently… if I could somehow go back in time to that first encounter in my office, I think that I would want the first and last words out of my mouth to somehow communicate that I loved him. And then I’d take him out for a coffee or soda and try and let him know that I’d be with him for the long haul.
Comments
From Miguel on April 12, 2011
I opened the link to this article ready to leave a very angry comment stating that we shouldn’t be shunning people. I was pleasantly surprised. It’s not just Jay Bakker and Jennifer Knapp, but a recently passed pastor, Peter Gomes that have been wonderful voices on this topic. I take this topic very seriously, because I have friends and family that struggle with this every day. They are afraid to attend church or even to worship God openly, because of the way we have acted before. We have somehow lost our standing as a people of love.
I as a youth minister was fired once over this very issue. I had stated to our volunteers at the time that I didn’t think we should ban students from coming to youth group because of their sexual orientation. I was very passionate about it because of my friends and family. Well the former youth minister was contacted by those leaders and lead the charge to get me fired. He called me the devil to my face, and told me to get behind him. The governing board of the church were kind about it and knew that I had done nothing wrong, but they were unwilling to let the congregation split over this and they decided to let me go instead. I understand the decision, but it just went to show that for a church of “open hearted” people they certainly didn’t know how to love. I hope that this article will help to teach other youth ministers that despite theological leanings we should love.
After all… Love wins.
From Jon Jolly on April 12, 2011
Thank you Shawn for an honest and critical reflection. I think you present the issues very well and I wholeheartedly agree with your summary:
“That doesn’t necessarily mean morphing your theological position on homosexuality. But it does mean that we need to get over our fears if we desire to seriously engage with a generation who is growing up in a largely different culture than what most of us are familiar with from the days of our youth.”
Young people today largely accept alternative sexuality from their peers and Christian attitudes and actions often seem naive or irrelevant to them. As a global church we need to be less judgemental and more loving towards those who live lifestyles that are different from our own.
Thanks for writing.
From Jay on April 12, 2011
Acceptance does not mean endorsement.
From Shawn Michael Shoup on April 12, 2011
Thanks for the encouragement, all. Re-reading the article again, it’s easy for me to get upset at myself when I see my perceived failure. Thank God for grace and His willingness to help me learn to love more like Him.
@ Miguel - Are you in ministry again? Sorry to hear about what happened in the past. As Karin from FB stated, “That stinks.”
@ Jon - Yes. “The times they are a changin’.” The perception at a lot of schools I’ve visited in the last few years is that half or more of those in attendance are gay, lesbian, or bi - that’s what students would tell me. Anybody else get that?
From KewL-AiDe on April 12, 2011
I think its summed up in the a saying we throw around without regard to the weight of its statement.
“Love the sinner, hate the sin.”
As a youth minister I base myself where the youth are… not in my office or the youth room, rather at the concert hall, skate parks, etc..;
At these various locations my everyday is surrounded by the gutter…. (the things we dont want to deal with, look at, or recognize.)
In one of these gutters I found myself having a discussion of homosexuality with this young man who would seek me out everyday in hopes of running me away. And everyday after our conversation (that left us where we began;) I would ask him to teach me a new trick on his skateboard. And everytime he’d mock me with the fact that I was learning from a sinner. to which I would reply we are all sinners.
One wensday before youth service I showed up to the park and noticed he wasnt there… I went off to church praying for him. To my surprise; there he was in the youth room. He finally turned his mocking comment into a question.
“Pastor KewL-AiDe, if what I do and believe is so wrong why do you talk to me, skate with me, buy me food?”
My reply to this young man was simple…
“Because I hate your sin, your actions, not you. Its in why you can mess up at home with your parents and they still love you.”
“Pastor KewL-AiDe if you’re being real bout waht you believe than you’re saying you really love… like REALLY love. How can I?”
I’m not saying we are going to lead every GLBT to Christ by this…. But I am saying that we can show Christ’ love and our love and present our beliefs and an argument and not a judgement. We are not seated at the thrown. He is. Let’s let Him do His job and us our own. At the same time I know the debate continues. But I dont believe accepting this sin is going to get them any closer to Christ. Stand for the scripture in Love and He and His Words will do the rest.
Shawn I applaud and thank you for your candidness. God Bless
From Miguel on April 12, 2011
Shawn, Yes I am still in ministry. It has been a wild ride so far though.
From Nicki on April 12, 2011
Love is an orientation. By Andrew Marian is a wonderful book about what it means to love people in the LGBTQ community
From Steven Turner on April 12, 2011
Shawn,
I appreciate the article. Once in an interview for a job I was asked how I would handle a hypothetical situation with an openly gay student. After a few years I started to think the best response to that question would be “how would you like for your child to be treated?”
It also reminded me of an experience at the high school where I teach. In a meeting of club presidents sharing their goals for the year, the president of our Christian Fellowship club shared immediately after the president of the GSA. I was still pondering the irony of this when the meeting adjourned and these two individuals walked out of the room side-by-side laughing and talking to each other. I could only think that is the best Christian response.
From Jeremy B. on April 12, 2011
Great article! Sadly, I wish this topic was not as complicated for those in the church. I have been working with at risk teens since I became a youth minister. Everyone should realize that the majority of teen suicides are committed by the GLBTQ culture. Growing up around my friends who are gay or lesbian it was always at the forefront of my mind in how I should handle the sensitive situation. I myself believe it isn’t easy to love AND be firm for most Christians. That is what I see as the crux of the problem: demonstrating God’s love and desire for a relationship while communicating that He considers many things sin and rebellion. (1 Tim. 1:10, 1 Cor. 6:9) That includes liars and thieves with that as well. So if sin is a sin is a sin, we have to realize that ultimately God wants them to move past their temptation to go opposite God’s law, just like when we lie and steal and fornicate and commit adultery.
Please don’t misread me, I LOVE my lesbian and gay friends and the point is that I RESPECT their free will. I think respect is the most proper way to show them love, by allowing my friends to choose and still remaining their friend, it proves that I am not shoving anything down their throat like some misguided Christians do (Westboro Baptist for one…if they are even really Christians “Preach a hateful Jesus and you get a hateful heaven” in my book)
Where I believe some Christians get off course is when they start to preach that as Christians we believe their lifestyle is okay to God. Lying isn’t okay to God, neither is adultery or lust for that matter. I once had a youth pastor friend of mine get up and start talking to youth about his life in drugs and sex, stating that God still had a place for him in ministry despite all the bad things he had done. It sounds encouraging and is true, but what the students heard was, “Have all the drugs and sex you want, God will still make you a youth pastor.” Some of the dedicated students even came up to him after and felt bad that they didn’t have horrible testimonies in order to reach out to their friends. Good intentions… bad presentation.
So, I have learned that for me it is still a careful balancing act of what to say to a student who is GLBTQ. Some readily realize the pain and confusion it puts them through with their urges and they are more reachable than those who enjoy being with their partners and have yet to see any damage occur in their lives. (Can anyone deny that pornography is bad, yet it seems to be so good for so many people? It sure was when I was growing up and has indeed left me with my own temptations I have to keep in check)
We have to be respectful of their choice, but still be firm in our own Christian lifestyle or else we end up preaching a gospel that says everyone gets into heaven regardless of what you believe or do. I believe preaching a happy meal Jesus leads to happy meal heaven, preaching a Biblical Jesus leads to Biblical heaven. And what Christian can argue that the Christian way is more blessed if they are willing to bend their own rules in order to make someone else feel good about their lifestyle?
I pray we all find the balance and inspiration to reach out to at risk students as students and not a demographic. Liars, thieves, sexually active, drugs, idolatry, or GLBTQ… they are still students who need to realize what God wants for their future as His creation.
From Jay on April 13, 2011
Again I say: Acceptance without endorsement. Accept the person for who they are and that doesn’t mean you necesarily endorse the lifestyle. Heck, we do it with drugs, alcohol, cutting,...a whole miriad of stuff, but we stumble on this issue as if we have the authority to judge, condemn, and cast out….
From Miguel on April 13, 2011
OK first and foremost do you know it is a sin? Have you talked to God audibly, face to face, what have you and asked if it was a sin? As the late Peter Gomes once said the bible has been used to back up all sorts of atrocities in God’s name, the holocaust, racism, slavery, etc… I don’t think that Homosexuality should be one of those things. I don’t think it’s our job to condemn that lifestyle. In fact my friends and family who are homosexual, are much better Christians than most people i meet in the church. I don’t think it is a sin to love someone despite their gender. Now before you start pulling out your Bible I thought about that too. First, the Leviticus passages… they are for Levites in fact read more of that book you will see it’s also a sin to play football or eat ham or bacon, and for one I’m not giving up bacon. Second the passages in Paul’s epistles… in roman times most of those who were in power had sex slaves. Those slaves were of the same gender. It was very unnatural for those people to lay with their sex slaves. It was very unnatural for Jews of that time to go for that sort of thing either. You gotta remember where he came from. he was a pharisee he had pharisaic leanings. It wasn’t even the main theme of his message when he wrote about it! He wrote about how all of creation was striving for perfection. The exodus of all Creation as it were. (A very Aristotelian concept) He was showing how we all are unnatural and the most natural thing we can do is turn to God and God will help pull us toward perfection.
Besides if you want to proof text I have some for you on that: David and Johnathan? What about 1 Timothy 4:1-5 (on forbidding marriages)? I could go on…
The truth is by saying it’s a sin we condemn them. You know it’s hard to separate the sinner from the sin in our own minds. You know it as well as I do. We can’t do it, that is why it’s not up to us. We should strive for better lives in Christ. We should strive to love God, love others, and love ourselves. In love there is no room for hate.Ok, maybe there is, but it is hate for injustice, greed, and corruption. I don’t think that this issue falls into those categories. Which is why I despise that idiom “Hate the sin, not the sinner.” The truth is i think it is impossible to do so. So just love. Forget about the hate. Once you love you will see that none of that matters! Because, Love wins.
Sorry Shawn to use your article for my soapbox. I just feel the other commenter’s starting to do so, and like i said this issue is very close to my heart.
From Shawn Michael Shoup on April 13, 2011
No need to apologize. For whatever reason, it is a heated topic in church, isn’t it?
I think the important thing is that we as the church continue to learn how to love like Jesus did: loving God… loving others unconditionally. I don’t think very many can argue that the perception at-large in current culture is that the church at-large isn’t very welcoming to the GLTB community. Regardless of everyone’s personal take on the sin issue, this needs to change.
Right?
From Mike on April 13, 2011
To add to Miguel’s comments:
The Leviticus passage in chapter 18 and 20 “do not lay with a man as a man lies with a woman” can be interpreted in a temporal sense and not a comparative sense. In other words, as a man is laying with a woman, do not join them.
I do not know Hebrew, but want to shed light on the levels of interpretation from original text and intent to what we have now. For me the issue is too ambiguous to be black and white and therefore we are to err on the side of love.
Thanks for the article.
From Big B on April 14, 2011
I love the article, I have a son that struggles with his sexuality, and It is heart-wrenching for me. Although, there is nothing he could ever do to make me stop loving him, so that is exactly the route to take when dealing with anyone who is actively homosexual, or just struggling, LOVE endures all things, LOVE is the tool to use to conquer all of our struggles with this world.
Thank you all for Serving our Risen LORD, and just keep loving kids into a relationship with Jesus.
b
From CT on April 18, 2011
First, I do not want to turn this great article on patience and love into a place for us to bash one another. So please do not take any personal offense to anything that is said. This is not an attack on anyone’s character, but a response to inaccuracies in biblical interpretation.
Now, in response to Miguel. Thank you for immediately throwing out the Leviticus passage. I hate it when people proof text Leviticus. I always want to ask them if their shirt is 100% any one fabric, because the law states that we aren’t to mix fabrics.
Now, onto Paul’s epistles. I have heard that argument many times that the context is male sex slaves. But, having taken several New Testament seminary classes and two years of Greek, I have to disagree. There are too many steps away from the context of the passage and the usage of the Greek words to get to male sex slaves. Yes, the wording can refer to that (and there are a few literary pieces from that time where it is used that way; although there are a great many more where it is used in terms of general homosexuality, which makes this the greater argument), but you also need the context to support it. And the context for male sex slave just isn’t there. It would be like me saying that there is a tree in my front yard, and you look out to notice a pine tree. Then, every time someone talks about a tree in their front yard you immediately decide that it is a pine tree. It very well could be a pine tree. But you must look at its bark, leafing, and check for pine cones before you can decide this.
Also, Jonathan and David were great friends. There is nothing in their relationship that suggests homosexuality. You are reading into it something that is not there, nor was it ever intended to be there.
And as for calling people out for their sin, we are supposed to do this (Matt. 18). Jesus called out people to repent of their sins. Heck, John called the Pharisees sons of Satan (this is the literal meaning of calling them ‘serpents’). Even Paul confronted Peter. I have had a few friends in the past several years who have left their wives and kids for other women. They have been involved in adulterous relationships. It would be wrong for me to not confront them on this. I have another friend who always says he has good intentions about reading his Bible daily, but he always wakes up late and has to rush to get to school. I have had to call him out on this, because, yes, laziness is a sin.
Does this mean that I am being evil for wanting to see my brothers turn from sin and become more Christ-like? We are not to be so concerned with how people might feel that we avoid having hard conversations. Yes, we are to be loving and patient when doing this, especially in light of the many evils that have been committed by Christians over this issue. But I cannot stand by idly and let my brothers and sisters in Christ live sinful lifestyles, whether it be homosexuality, laziness, gluttony, murder, gossip, etc. As a minister of the Gospel of Christ I cannot do this.
I wish we got fired up about ‘minor’ sins the same way that we do about homosexuality. I understand the gravity of this issue, but some ‘great sinners’ fall through the cracks because they’re not involved in one of the ‘larger’ sins, and therefore go unchecked.
From Miguel on April 18, 2011
Ct You do make some good points. My point is more that I don’t personally believe it is a sin. I don’t see it hurting anyone else. I don’t think I communicated very well in my last few paragraphs as well as i should have.
As far as the Pauline texts yes i can see what you are saying, but I need to remind you that it was never his main point. His point was always that all of creation was striving to be at oneness with God and the world we live in now is not there yet.
As far as David and Johnathan. Come on… They weren’t just good friends, the way the relationship was described was more than just buddy love. Granted, there may not have been anything happening, but still…
What I am meaning by the not hating part is that I think that we should confront others when we see them hurting other people. I think that is the point. I think that when someone is hurting others or hurting themselves is when we should certainly say something. Is homosexuality hurting someone else? No i don’t think it does. People are uncomfortable by it, but no it doesn’t hurt anyone. Does it hurt the person? No, unless they are living a promiscuous lifestyle, but that is the same with people of every sexual orientation.
From God-Seeker on April 18, 2011
I couldn’t agree more with what CT has said. There was a time in my young years as a growing Christian that I responded with repulsion at anyone who openly professed to living a homosexual lifestyle. I didn’t want to go near them, didn’t think I had anything in common with them to want to even engage in conversation. I just didn’t want anything to do with them. Year later, I discovered the inconsistency in my actions. As CT rightly said, homosexuality is a sin, but in the eyes of a Holy God, it is just as offensive as lying , stealing, using foul language, sowing discord, gossip, you name it, because it goes against everything that God is, and stands for. I can’t believe the poeple who - have the nerve to claim - that the Bible has nothing to say against homosexuality. You’re clearing spinning the Word to validate your thinking; when as Romans 12:1-2 puts it, God’s Word is what should shape the way we think. If anyone’s going to argue for homosexuality, stop quoting the Bible… you have no basis for doing so. Instead, be honest in admitting that anyone’s decision to practice homosexuality, is what it is, their decision. No one made it for you. No one made you like this. No one forced you to go in this direction. We all need to learn to stop blaming others for the sinful choices we make, and own up to our issues, cry out for His mercy, and invite the Holy Spirit to help us live the way our Creator-God intended. Homosexuality is a sin, Miguel, whether you want to believe it or not. Saying you don’t think its a sin is simply a matter of your opinion… purely subjective; nothing objective about it at all. This applies to the cheat, the thief, the liar, the con, the adulterer… etc. Sin is sin. Deal with it; let’s not rope God into our arguement to justify it. PLEASE!!!
From David on April 19, 2011
This is a very touchy subject. I have had junior high students asking me to teach about this as they have many friends struggling with their sexuality. Maybe even, secretly, they were struggling. From my somewhat limited understanding of the Bible (I am no Bible scholar extraordinaiire) Jesus condemned ALL forms of sexual sin - which would include homosexuality. You can twist Bible verses to justify any kind of sin, however, if you try hard enough. There are consequences for ANY sexual sins. While we may not be able to control who we are attracted to, we can - with God’s help - choose how we act on those feelings. It doesn’t matter if you are heterosexual, homosexual or bi-sexual. You can choose to obey God’s Word, or choose not to. Sadly, we see larger numbers of people choosing to live in sin - commiting adultery, having sex outside of marriage, throwing away marriages when the first sign of trouble comes up. What do we do with all these sinners? (Let’s not forget who we are as well). We love them. We don’t have to agree with their choices. If asked, we can share what we believe - based on God’s Word (and in love), Let the Holy Spirit convict them. It is not our job to change people, just to plant seeds, to love, to point them to the one who can change them. We are not to condemn them as many have a habit of doing. All sin is a matter of choice. We can choose to believe something is not a sin, but that doesn’t make it so. We, in a sense, begin making God in our image when we try to use His Word to justify our sins. The biggest sin? Failure to love others.
From Shawn on April 19, 2011
Hey Shawn - Great article. I’m glad that this conversation is going on within the youth ministry circle - I pray it continues to do so, at even greater lengths. I agree with many points on here, especially CT. If I could, I want to offer my story and blog as a resource for youth workers to use concerning this issue.
I speak as one coming from both sides: a gay man, and a youth worker. I run a ministry that reaches out to gay teens and to youth workers (the Church), with a desire to educate both sides about God’s Identity and Wholeness. I have written some articles that I think will benefit many people on this thread. Click the link above for my blog address ... once there, check out the Youth Worker tab or the side panel for articles on ministering to gay teens, how to help parents love their gay child, understanding what the Bible says (and doesn’t say) about homosexuality, and the like.
Thanks again, Shawn, for the conversation.
Shawn
From Jonathan Davis on April 20, 2011
Great article! My wife and I have been through similar sittuations discussing sexuality with teens. Its never an easy topic. I have counselled teens that were bi-curious because it was popular at school to be that way. I have counselled teens who also have VERY real sexual atraction to the same gender. The answer in my mind is always to listen and love first. Think about it, the way you treat a kid who comes out of the closet will either push them away from church their whole lives, or draw them closer to God’s love and discipleship with Christ.
@Steven Turner, I love your response to the interview question!
From Jonathan Davis on April 22, 2011
Also, is there a way Youth Specialties could attach Lady Gaga’s song to this page. I think it would go well with the article. :-)
From Shawn on April 22, 2011
I think the song by Lady Gaga suggests something that is not entirely true (or at least hasn’t been proven): that people are born gay and that, as such, people cannot change. I think the song, while it gives a message of acceptance, is very pro-gay orientated.
From Jonathan Davis on April 23, 2011
Shawn- I was just being facetious. I was mostly thinking about the title of the article. I’m no authority to say if people are born one way or another. I do belive we are all born imperfect and with a sinful nature. I don’t think that Lady Gaga should be held up as an example for our kids, although her music, because of its insane popularity, is a great springboard for serious conversation on many issus.
From Bill on April 25, 2011
Your story is excellent. After much studying my wife and I have learned a lot. I was a youth pastor for 22 years. We dealt with every subject but this… that is until my youngest told us she was gay. We were dazed and confused. One thing we knew, we told our daughter we would always love her. We disagreed with her actions but as Christ loved the woman caught in sexual sin, we loved her. This subject will be the greatest challenge for the church in this “politically correct” world. Thank you for bringing it up. Many kids are struggling and are afraid to seek answers in the church and in our youth meetings.
From Shawn Michael Shoup on April 26, 2011
@ Bill - Thank you for loving unconditionally. The link to your site didn’t work. What is the correct URL?
From Shawn on April 26, 2011
Gracefellowship.com
I appreciate your unconditional love as well Bill - to your daughter and others. I would love to talk with you about your experience and insight in having a gay daughter. Could you email me: 611ministries [at] gmail [dot] com. Thanks.
From Bill on April 26, 2011
Sorry Shawn M., that’s why I leave the computer stuff to my wife. Love to help anyone and answer any questions we can. Feel free to contact us. God never wastes a hurt.
From derek a on April 27, 2011
I agree that sin is a sin is a sin is a sin and sexual relationships of any kind gay or straight outside of marriage is a sin. God clearly states that we are only to be united in marriage. Biblical marriage is the uniting of two different sex people not of two same sex people. Therefore the statement ‘love the person not the act’ is what we are called to do. There is no confusion if someone is in a sexual relationship (gay, straight) outside of marriage they are sinning and we are told to tell them so in love not in condemnation.
From Larry on April 28, 2011
So what do you do when a young GLBT person shares their call to enter into Ordained ministry? Is our love great enough to not only include them but to let them lead as well?
From Shawn on April 30, 2011
As I would with any student, I would walk with the person through prayer and discernment. What is it that God is really calling the person to?
Next, I would be open with them about what God requires of those who are called to Ministry (pastor, teacher, missions, etc) within the local church.
Be ready, though, cause this will bring tension.
I remember when I first approached my friends youth pastor about getting involved into youth ministry - I thought it would be cool. Mind you, I was still in high school myself, not a Christian, and still very much acting upon my same-sex attractions. The youth pastor sat me down and had an honest talk about my life. He was upfront about what ministry entailed, and required of me.
Did I hate what he was saying? Yes. But after becoming a Christian (two-years later), I knew what God was calling me to (youth ministry) and I knew what it would cost me (self-denial). I appreciated the honest conversation I had years before.
In all of this, however, we need to remember that some “ministry persons” will have (do have) same-sex attractions. This alone does not reject them from ministry - it does not determine who’s in and who’s out. I think the deciding factor is what they do with their same-sex attractions: are they acting upon them (now or later), or are they willing to not pursue the attractions. Many ministers (people in ministry) deal with same-sex attractions, but have chosen to not pursue or entertain the attractions. This is where I would fit.
There are others who want both a same-sex relationship and a ministry. To me, this is unbiblical. As hard as this sounds, it’s the truth.
And for the record, this extends to anyone who desires to do ministry, yet is struggling with any type of sin in their life. The same standards we hold to those who deal with same-sex attractions, should be the same standards we hold for EVERYONE, in every position of ministry.
From Launa on May 03, 2011
I really appreciate the tenor of the conversation we’re having here. Genuine, passionate, thoughtful, sensitive.
I’ll chime in so that Miguel is not the only voice of those who do not believe that one’s sexual orientation excludes one from discipleship or ministry.
I’ve been in youth ministry for 25 years… like many of you, I’ve sought after how best to interpret these scriptures and how to minister to those who are GLBTQ. Through your life experiences you encounter things that give you new perspective or bring new questions.
I was on a sports team with a lot of lesbian women. Most of these women had received the message that God was repulsed by them and they were going to hell. Some of them were in despair because they felt a strong devotion to God but figured that God “abhorred” them even so. How could I reconcile my theology to the effect the “gospel” was having on these women?
Homosexuality was not the only issue troubling me; I grew increasingly discontent about how irrelevant church seemed to non-church-goers. It seemed like a place where insiders remind other insiders that everybody else is an outsider. I don’t see Jesus living out that model of church.
In time, I began to serve at a church where the LGBTQ community was accepted, even in leadership positions. I wasn’t fully on board with the theology but was grateful that no one was excluded from God’s embrace.
That was about 15 years ago. I have come to believe that one’s sexual orientation does not exclude one from discipleship or ministry. I can even reconcile that with scripture, while taking scripture seriously! Looking back, I think the biggest factor that made me change my point of view was seeing the evidence of the fruit of the spirit in the lives of Christians who were LGBTQ. While I wasn’t sure if it was “right” for them to be gay, they continued to live a life that reflected their love for God. They served God, served the church, served others, showed love to the unloveable, exhibited joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc. That was what was so compelling to me.
I know we won’t all end up with the same perspective, but I am grateful for where my journey of faith has led me.
From Anthony on May 04, 2011
Thank you for your story, I am a 56 year old white male Transexual living in Australia. Your story caused me to ask this question ?
Have you ever heard another human being say ” you are acceptable, you are ok the way you are”
and you know what ?........I never have.
I know I am perfect whole and complete because we all are, we are all created by the same loving God equaly, but you know what ?
It would make so much differance if another human said it and meant it, just once.
I dont say this for me now, but for all the brothers and sisters we are yet to meet, and for all the ones we have not yet said it to.
Asalam Alaikum Tony
From Brother Raymond on May 10, 2011
This article clearly shows a major problem with Christianity in our culture. We are afraid of holding forth God’s standards because we are afraid of hurting peoples feelings. Shawn, you are boasting that a bi-sexual youth left your house thinking you were cool and you applauded yourself for it. Yet Jesus said if you loved and obeyed Him the world would hate you. They would hate you because God’s standards are high, his gate is narrow and those who live for this world and their flesh hate God and hate those who strive to live for Jesus. this is why Paul told Timothy “All who desire to live Godly in Christ will suffer persecution.” You failed Shawn, and demonstrated you despise God’s standards.
Part of the problem is that we think a primary purpose of the church is evangelism and so, if someone leaves the church or is offended at God’s standards we think we have failed. But the church is for the sheep, and building up those who proclaim Christ until they are like Christ and evangelism is a secondary cause of a Christ filled body who loves each other, promotes holiness and separation from the world, and lives for eternity.
I think Shawn should be less concerned about how his acceptance, or non acceptance affected a homosexual youth who is living in rebellion from God and more concerned that His apathy toward God’s standards and word could have set those people on a path to eternal separation from God. Homosexuals shall not enter the kingdom of heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). If you are confused about what God clearly says about sexual sin you should not be in leadership. The mature believer has exercised his senses to discern between good and evil (Hebrews 5:14) and by trying not to hurt someones feelings who are engaged in biblical sin, you are showing you do not love that person because you are helping them down the broad path of destruction. Repent Shawn and believe the gospel.
From Brother Raymond on May 10, 2011
Also you who boast how you are friends with those who live in rebellion to God your boasting is not Good and again you need to read your scriptures unless you deny that the scriptures are truth. We are to separate from the unclean and ungodly to some degree. While I agree that many things are sin in God’s eyes you are living under a false assumption that you should not deal in a strong manner with thieves and liars as you should homosexuals because you believe in a Jesus that only covers your sin and cannot free you from the power of sin. If you are a Christian but still a liar and a thief according to the book of 1 john (Please go read it) not only are you a liar, but you do not know God and you demonstrate through your lifestyle you are not a Christian.
Not to mention John says friendship with the world makes you an enemy of God. Not very seeker friendly. I am only speaking this strongly because this article and these responses do not represent Christ NOR the Bible. They are feel good ideas of men which are dangerous. Repent and believe the gospel people. Be saved from this wicked generation. Let God’s word be your guide and not these false prophets that want to tell you smooth things rather than give you the knowledge of God which can save your soul and turn you from your sin.
From YouthPastorT on May 12, 2011
Thanks for a great article. It’s not an easy subject to tackle.
I think that homosexuality is not something God intends for anyone. If it were, we would likely see open instances of it in Scripture. There is definite condemnation for it. If you want to dance around it and say it means something else, by all means, go ahead. People have been trying to justify their sin for thousands of years. If you are a teacher in the Church, though, please be very careful. Scripture is very clear that you will be judged differently - more harshly - than others. Be sure you are totally sold to what you are selling.
As far as the David & Jonathan thing, that is extremely far-fetched. You could argue there was something between Ruth & Naomi or even Jesus & John (the disciple Jesus loved). That’s just grasping for validation that isn’t there.
Regarding not being able to condemn homosexuality as sinful behavior because you have friends and family living that lifestyle, then we shouldn’t say any sin is sinful. Should we just let everyone continue in their sinful behavior and call it righteousness?
God is pretty clear in the 10 Commandments that sex outside of marriage is not something He wants us engaging in. He was pretty clear in the creation account that He created man and woman to be married to each other. I don’t see the need for much argument about whether or not homosexuality is sinful.
The question is, how do we effectively love people engaging in sinful behavior that they do not believe is sinful? Simple. We just love them. It is not up to us to convict people of their sin. We don’t validate it or tell them it isn’t sin. Let Jesus do His work in that person’s heart. If they ask you questions, do your best to answer them lovingly. Laugh together. Do God’s work together. Be a Godly example to them. Be a shoulder to cry on.
From Shawn on May 15, 2011
Thanks for the input everyone. Great conclusions to a heated argument.
@Tony - I pray that God continues to woo your heart into a deeper relationship with Him. I pray that you continue to find your identity in Him, and not your sexuality.
@Brother Raymond - I read your comments and your blog. Interesting stuff. I would love to further converse with you about this topic and some of your comments. Would you mind emailing me - 611ministries [at] gmail [dot] com. Thanks.
From Darrell on May 19, 2011
Very interesting discussion here….I have been in the ministry of the Gospel for about 31 years….all types…singles, couples, adults, teens and children. The bottomline is love….we must never pervert God’s word and always preach and teach His truth….not ours…Jesus came to save sinners from eternal separation from God….that means all people that not accepted Jesus’ life, death and resurrection for their sins….it doesn’t matter if your sin is lying, cheating, fornication, homosexual, bi-sexual, adultery…“all have sinned and fall short….the wages of sin is death…unless a man/woman/child/gay/straight/black/white/latina is born again…they will not enter heaven….the free gift of God is eternal life through the blood of Jesus…confess with mouth, believe in heart that Jesus died and was raised for our sin…period….justified, sanctified and glorified….obey His word through the help of the Holy Spirit….get some good teaching and submit to His will…..
From Donna on May 28, 2011
This was a very good article. As a volunteer youth worker we deal with this and have dealt with this on many levels. We have had a girl state her feelings for one of our female youth workers which caused that youth worker to quit, in fear. But it also caused us to lose many of the kids who were afraid of her possible affections.
But I also see several of our youth that are willing to show a friendship to youth at school that have stated that they are gay or lesbian. This is a friendship similar to what you described in your article.
As someone else wrote, we are accepting them without accepting their lifestyle, which is a nice saying. When we have to live this out in real life it can be very hard.
From Rebecca on June 13, 2011
Miguel,
“Run away from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body. or don’t you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body.” 1 Corinthians 6: 18 - 20
From Rebecca on June 13, 2011
The Bible is clear that homosexuality is immoral. The Bible has many main points; each book has main points, and there are many other points in each book and even each passage as well. We are not to just pick and choose the ones we agree with,the ones feel comfortable with, the ones we consider to be “main”. No where in the Bible is homosexuality portrayed as anything but immoral, and furthermore it is outright condemned.
“So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. Instead of believing what hey knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshipped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds, and let them do the things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behaviour, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud. and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And worse yet, they encourage others to do them. too. you may be saying, ‘What terrible people you have been talking about!’ But you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you do these very same things. And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. Do you think that God will judge and condemn others for doing them and not judge you when you do them, too? Don’t you realize how kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Or don’t you care? Can’t you see how kind he has been in giving you time to turn from your sin?” Romans 1: 24 - 2: 4
Paul wrote this (1:1) to those who were called to Jesus Christ, beloved of God, in Rome. (1 :6) These are strong words; they are not words of hate, but of loving rebuke. Homosexuality is called shameful, shameful desires and [doing] shameful things. (1: 26, 27) It began when mankind chose idolotry over the worship of the true God. (1: 21 -23) It began when people chose to put their own desires and their own thoughts before the desires and thoughts of their Creator. It began when they deliberately chose to believe lies. (1: 24 - 25) Hating is wrong. It is a sin. No one argues that. Murder is wrong. It is a sin. No one argues that. Greed, envy, malicious behaviour…gossip, pride, insolence; yes, they are sins, condemned by a holy and just God. And before all these, in this passage, comes the sin of homosexuality. In fact, it appears to be an opening of the door for the sins named in verses 1:29 - 30.
“Don’t you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshippers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers—none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God. there was a time when some of you were just like that, but now your sins have been washed away, and you have been set apart for God. You have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God have done for you.” 1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 11
The Apostle Paul wrote this ( 1: 1) to the Church at Corinth, called by God to be His own holy people. (1: 2) He made them holy, just as he made YOU holy, if you are a Christian who calls upon the name of Jesus Christ as Lord. (1: 2) Paul thaks God for them and obviously loves them, yet he has awfuly strong words for them about their tolerance for sin, homosexuality included. Parallel passages to these are Galatians 5:19 -21, Ephesians 5: 3 - 9, and revelation 22:15. In these verses homosexuality is not expressly named, but neither are many of the other specific sins which are named in Romans and Corinthians. We do not say that thieving is not a sin because it is not listed in Galatians 5, nor do we say that adultery is alright because it is not named as immoral in Ephesians 5. Revelation 22 declares that the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idol worshippers, and all who love to lie are all outside the city…they are not in the Kingdom of God. Does that mean that adulterers are in the Kingdom, for they are not expressly named as without? Does that mean that thieves are in the Kingdom, for they are not expressly named as without? Does that mean that abusers and swindlers are in the Kingdom, for they are not expressly named as without? No, it does not. We already know that these are sins, and that those who cling to these sins will not be in the Kingdom of God. Specific sins of sexual immorality are not named because we already have seen elsewhere, and even know in our God given conscience, that they are forms of sexual immorality: promiscuity, lasciviousness, adultery, fornication, bestiality, incest, and yes, homosexuality. The Holy Scriptures need not tell us more than once for us to know, yet it does tell us more than once. “These laws are for people who are sexually immoral, for homosexuals and slave traders, for liars and oath breakers, and for those who do anything else that contradicts the right teaching that comes from the glorious Good News entrusted to me by our blessed God.” 1 Timothy 1: 10
To which laws is this refering? To the Laws of Moses…yes, even those in Leviticus. Whether we like it or not, laws in the Old Testament were given by God. They were given for those who were living in ways God did not intend, that is, they were given for those lost in sin. Why? According to this passage, for their good.To protect people from themselves; elsewhere we are also told that the law was given to show us just hoe sinful we are and in need of a Saviour. This is the Gospel folks! Homosexuality is not God’s plan for anyone. Sin is not God’s plan for anyone. We choose sin, but God in His mercy draws us to Himself and has provided a way for us to be set free from the sins which so easily ensnare us! If this is not love, what is? Homosexuality was amongst the sins of Sodom and Gommorah. It was not their only sin, but it was written in Scriptures whereas many others which they were no doubt engaging in, as we also do, were not named. Why? Do you think that God is faulty in what He has inspired to be written? Homosexuality was, according to Paul AND according to archeology and according to extra-Biblical written history, rampant in the Greek and Canaanite areas (not to mention many other parts of the globe.) The world says that this goes to show that homosexuality is normal. Far from it! This goes to show exactly as the Bible says, that mankind has fallen. That our very natures have become sinful. That we turned from God to glorify His creation, even to glorify our own bodies and our own sexual desires! The Bible calls homosexuality sin. IT condemns the homosexual to an eternity OUTSIDE of God’s Kingdom. And do some of us dare to call ourselves ministers of the Gospel and encourage people in this sin of sexual immorality? Even to encourage our youth to embrace their sinful desires? Heaven forbid!
“When I wrote to you before, I told you not to associate with people who indulge in sexual sin. But I wasn’t talking about unbelievers who indulge in sexual sin, or who are greedy or who are swindlersor idol worshippers. You would have to leave this world to avoid people like that. What i meant is that you are not to associate with anyone who claims to be a Christian yet indulges in sexual sin, or is greedy, or worships idols, or is abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Don’t even eat with such people. it isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your job to judge those inside the church who are sinning in these ways. God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.” 1 Corinthians 5: 9 - 13 (cross reference quote to Deuteronomy 21: 21; 24: 7) Paul is not advocating return to the Law of an eye for an eye…he is not advocating stoning to “remove the evil person.” “He states, ” I can hardly believe the report about the sexual immorality going on among you, something so evil that even the pagans don’t do it. I am told that you have a man in your church who is living in sin with his father’s wife. And you are so proud of yourselves! Why aren’t you mourning in sorrow and shame? And why haven’t you removed this man from your fellowship? Even though I am not there with you in person, I am with you in the Spirit. Concerning the one who has done this, I have already passed judjment in the name of the Lord Jesus. you are to call a meeting of the church, and I will be there in spirit, and the power of the Lord Jesus will be with you as you meet. Then you must cast this man out of the church and into Satan’s hands, so that his sinful nature will be destoyed and he himself will be saved when the Lord returns. How terrible that you should boast about your spirituality, and yet let this sort of thing go on. Don’t you realize that if even one person is allowed to go on sinning, soon all will be affected? Remove this wicked person from among you so that you can stay pure. Christ, our Passover Lamb, has been sacrificed for us. So let us celebrate the festival, not by eating the old bread (leaven) of wickedness and evil, but by eating the new bread (unleavened) of purity and truth.” 1 Corinthians 5: 1 -8 If Paul sounds harsh consider these words of Christ. “One day Jesus said to his disciples, ’ There will always be temptations to sin, but how terrible it will be for the person who does the tempting. it would be better to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around the neck than to face the punishment in store for harming one of these little ones. I am warning you! if another believer sins,, rebuke him; then if he repents, forgive him.” Luke 17; 2 - 3 Paul also shows that tolerance is not love, but that rebuking with the intent of bringing the sinner to repentance and thus saving their soul is. “How painful it was to write that letter! Heartbroken, I cried over it. I didn’t want to hurt you, but wanted you to know how very much I love you. I am not overstating it when I say that the man who caused all the trouble hurt your entire church more than he hurt me. he was punished enough when most of you were united in your judgment against him. Now it is time to forgive him and comfort him. Otherwise he may become so discouraged that he won’t be able to recover. Now show him that you still love him.” 2 Corinthians 2: 1 - 8. This passage may or may not be speaking of the same man Paul was condeming in 1 Corinthians, who being of the church was living in sexual sin, but it shows what his heart was toward that man. This should be our heart toward those in sin, including sexual sins like homosexualit, who are in our churches. They must be rebuked for their souls and others are at stake. They must be loved, but their sin must never be tolerated or encouraged! Hear the words of Jesus Christ the Lord to the self-righteous, TOLERANT OF SIN, apathetic towards holiness, church of Laodicaea. They are words we in the church today would do well to heed. “I know all the things you do, that you are neither hot nor cold. I wish you were one or the other! But since you are like lukewarm water, I will spit you out of my mouth! You say, ‘I am rich. I have everything I want. I don’t need a thing!’ And you don’t realize that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. I advise you to buy gold from me—gold that has been purified by fire. Then you will be rich. And also buy white garments so you will not be ashamed by your nakedness. And buy ointment for your eyes so you will be able to see. I am the one who corrects and disciplines everyone I love. Be diligent and turn from your indifference.” Revelation 3: 15 - 19
From Brian Mcconnell on June 23, 2011
I think we have allowed popularity and wanting to build a bigger following for our reputation sake,cloud our definition of convition. Convition hurts yet heals,like a shot I hate those neddles yet they will heal. Condemnation hurts and keeps hurting. Jesus loved to the point it hurt in fact he bled. When was the last time you took a stand for his word and risk not being liked .Cause the truth is you cant save anyone or cause them to go to heaven and you cant make every choice for them. The only person you can be sure gets to heaven is you,so Gods word must be priority.My kids dont like me to tell them not to play in the street yet they still love me.We need to make sure we are sold out to Gods word and not our group size or status of our popularity.Love tells people what they need to hear not what they want to hear.I would rather them remember me by the stand I took for God for their sake,rather them knowing I told them it was okay for my reputation and group size sake. Love is not love without Jesus at the center!!!
From Jackson F on July 03, 2011
Wow.
It was a great article. (Though I almost lost sight of the article in the midst of all the comments.) I’ve done Youth Ministries in Virginia, In Los Angels, San Diego and Sacramento and I have had a handfull of situations that was kind of similar. However, when I moved to my current location (Middle of Noware Calif) I was blown away by the incredible number of students struggling with their sexual identity. In less than 6 months of being here (at me local church when I first arrived) I was talked to by over 15 students, NINE in one week. I am pleased that Youth Specialties has been addressing this topic in multiple forums over the last several years. I think that it is so important to not miss the practical needs so that we can address the CORE issues and not just the symptoms. Honestly, when I was originally hit by the wave of questions, I wasn’t totally ready. I was kind of dumbstruck really. My students didn’t really have questions to what the Bible really said. They KNEW. They just didn’t know what to do or HOW to do it. I had gone to a phenominal Christian University in east coast and a wonderful seminary on the west coast, but the depth of the questions were not addressed. It has been over five years since I started here and God is still showing me new ways to help students hear and understand in ways that they can apply everyday.
Dear God,
Thanks for the abundance of Youth workers represented here who strive to love you and love our students. Please keep speaking to us about how to love with grace and truth as we lead and will be held responsible for what and how we do. Please help us to express you better and help our students to seek you and obey as you reveal truth to them. Help us to listen better to Your prodding and help us to listen better to our students so that we can know better how to minister to them and reflect Your character. Thank you that when we mess up in expressing your love and truth that you are bigger, and fully capable of filling the gap. And thanks for though we may love these students tons, even combined, nothing matches your love for them (And US!)
Grateful for your Boundless, Powerful Love,
In Jesus Name,
Amen.
From Brother Raymond on July 03, 2011
The reason this seems such a challenge to you guys is because you clearly have forgotten what happens when you become a Christian and what the fruit of the risen life looks like. When we are born again we become New Creatures. If kids are struggling with lusting after those of their sex (Not struggling with their sexual identity they are struggling with sin and the flesh), the need to be taught about spiritual warfare, how to overcome, and what the Christian life looks like. There are so many in leadership who need to be discipled themselves. They believe because they have an education that makes them fit for leadership. Brother if you don’t know how to counsel a homosexual kid maybe you shouldn’t be in leadership. Its not a mystery, its not a challenge. Its about being a witness for the Lord Jesus and clearly holing up the word of truth so they can see if they are even Christians. It scares me the direction Christianity is going in this country. Truly we are in the last days.
From Pastor J on August 27, 2011
Someone mentioned that they believe homosexuality is not a sin. And stated that it doesn’t hurt anyone. This may be true individually, but it is a sin and it may not hurt anyone individually but it is hurting the body of Christ collectively since it is being accepted and endorsed. But most seriously it hurts God just like any other sin we commit or live by. It hurts God!
We are not in this world to please anyone, we are here to please God. And when we sin we stop pleasing Him!
Also, David and Jonathan were merely best friends like brothers. nothing more. CT i’m with you. Shawn great info.
From Gordfather on September 19, 2011
Great article. I would differentiate between those homosexuals who want to be more or less neighbors and those who want to push an agenda into every house, family, institution, and conscience in America. It would be as much a sin to be idle when so great a battle looms concerning the truths of scripture and plans God has for us as it would be to shut the door on the lost because of their sin. For God loves those who fight Him yet also disciplines those He loves. I can love a homosexual as a neighbor as much as I can love a heterosexual. They are one in the same as regards their identity as a lost sheep in God’s flock. I was one (a lost sheep) and still am finding myself trying to eat the grass that “seems” greener on the other side almost daily. We are all sinners and have to say “yes” to God and no to “sin” everyday. I too will love the sinner and hate the sin. I will break bread with them. I will serve them. But I will oppose them when they seek to rearrange God’s word, twist His truths, and pervert His gospel in order to bring into line His will with their sin. “An awakened conscience is hell” (Wesley) and I fear that too many refuse to accept the fact that living with “truth” stirs up change that leads to a road far less traveled because it is difficult and involves submission and humility. It involves a struggle and yielding everyday…a battle if you will, that most people find easier to just opt out of. In fact, most do in that they find it far easier NOT to reflect on their lives and where they are going in light of God’s plan for them than to measure their heart and actions with the plumbline of God’s will and word. I would presume that Jesus would reach out and spend time with LGBT community but I also believe that He would not endorse their redefinition of sin.
From Ally on September 19, 2011
I think this was a really good article. It didn’t come with lots of answers, but it did remind us to “love” the kids, all the kids, as Jesus loved them. Jesus hung out with the sinners. The Pharasis weren’t too happy about that, but how can you reach people you are unwilling to talk to, know and care about. I think it’s great that your daughters friend thought you were cool. Now you can build a relationship and earn the right to speak into his life.
The Bible is written to Christians, not to the rest of the world. I don’t believe non-Christians should be held to the same standard. How can they? They don’t believe and haven’t accepted the Gospel yet. However, once someone chooses to follow Jesus, they are called to seek the purposes God has for their life. Jesus came to give us abundant life. That is the starting point. We should pray that God would open their eyes and help them to recognize their sin and to help them move past that lifestyle. I don’t know about you, but my God is big enough to help anyone on this earth. What helping is, may look different than I expect, but I’m open to what He has to say.
I do believe Practicing/Living a homosexual lifestyle is a sin. I do not believe “being” homosexual is a sin. We are all called to rise above our temptations/sins (lie, cheat, steal, lust….). Where I draw the line is leadership in the Church.
If someone is actually living any sinful lifestyle , how can they lead the church? But, again that comes down to whether or not you believe it is a sin. I do, but not any different than any other sin. To me, telling someone it’s ok, would be no different than offering an alchoholic a drink. I lived away from God for many years in a manner than would not please Him. I am thankful I moved toward Him, accepted Him and now “try” to live in a manner pleasing to Him. Sometimes I am more successful than others, after all I’m a sinner too.
I really do feel pretty strongly about people who are openly sinning being in church leadership. However, outside of that, all sinners are welcome in the church. Being GLBT wouldn’t prevent someone from being a Christian, but then they do need to deal with how God sees sin. That doesn’t even mean they become a Christian and resolve the entire issue immediately. Can’t we extend love to those in our midst and give them time to learn?
Dealing with sin is never easy. I don’t think “we” as a church bode deal with it very well. When was the last time anyone in your church actually confronted someone about their excessive drinking, lying, gossip, adultery, slander, gluttony or pornography? We either shout that “something” is evil and we shouldn’t even talk to people “like that”, or we don’t even address real sin in the body of the church. Sin never only hurts one person, it hurts the whole body. It is difficult, but we need to confront IN LOVE, all forms of sin, from a place of restoration, not condemnation.
From Shawn Michael Shoup on September 19, 2011
It’s been so encouraging to see all of this dialogue. Thank you to everyone who has stopped by to comment. It’s obviously a touch subject.
For an update on the story: we have yet to see the young man mentioned in the article visit our church or turn from his lifestyle, but he continues to have conversations about God with my daughters. He seems more open to the gospel every day. I’m super-encouraged and I hope that you’ll join me in praying for him.
