Military Imagery in Youth Ministry
Over the past few years I’ve seen some blog posts opening a debate about the use of military imagery in youth ministry events and teaching. When I first read these blog posts I wrote it off. Just a bunch of left-leaning softies, right? That stuff isn’t a big deal, is it? Then yesterday, Adam Walker Cleaveland brought it up again on his blog charging, YouthBytes Offers Inappropriate Youth Devotional. Here’s the video:
There is plenty of truth to what Adam is saying on his blog. I’ve attended some youth ministry events that felt more like rallies for the United States military than conferences meant to encourage students to deepen their faith. Camouflage t-shirts, flag waving, teaching illustrations involving guns and fighting, videos of warfare, and a close tie between spiritual warfare and actual warfare. I sarcastically wondered if there were a recruiter for the Armed Services in the hallway next to the Compassion International booth. While he isn’t arguing that all military illustrations are bad, he is saying that this one is inappropriate.
The flip side of that argument is that God’s Word, especially in the Old Testament, is filled with military imagery. It is perfectly logical to assume that since the Bible uses military imagery, documents battles, and uses those battles as a way to teach God’s people about a life following Him, it’s acceptable to modernize the imagery so that it makes sense to today’s audience. I know in my own teaching I’ve used plenty of military imagery as I taught 1 & 2 Kings and Joshua. How could you teach these books and avoid military imagery?
With that, I invite you into the debate by leaving a comment.
Is this video, as Adam charges, inappropriate?
How do you separate the Bible’s violent imagery and the violence our students see today in schools, on TV, etc.?
In a world that struggles to find relevance with the church, how do you think military imagery is viewed by non-Christians?
January 5th, 2009 - Posted By: Adam McLane in Culture, Open Question | |
on January 5th, 2009 at 11:53 am
[...] Please continue the conversation on this post, but I thought you might be interested in seeing what the readers of the Youth Specialties’ blog are saying about this post here. [...]
on January 5th, 2009 at 11:55 am
Is this video, as Adam charges, inappropriate?
Yes a little big. Although Youthbytes is trying their best to contextualize the gospel in a way that gets kids amped for Christ. Again the message is there, but the method is a bit off and inappropriate.
How do you separate the Bible’s violent imagery and the violence our students see today in schools, on TV, etc.?
Tough question. I tend to look at the issue at large. I don’t focus on the violent issue at hand, rather I focus on why the violence is happening. What is the intentionality to why God killed thousands? As we step away from the many violent OT passages and ask what are the many traits of God? More than likely love, grace, peace, forgiveness, justice, patience will come to mind.
Jesus is in fact the central figure in the Bible and He so wonderfully articulates His position in the sermon on the mount.
In a world that struggles to find relevance with the church, how do you think military imagery is viewed by non-Christians?
In general, military imagery is not the best way/method. Why?
1. Our current war struggle in Iraq. Politically and theologically, this is a heated debate. I simply don’t see military imagery in the fruit of the Spirit. Therefore, using military rhetoric sends mix messages. In addition, why import God into a topic, namely the military, when it generates such a negative response?
2. Sends misconceptions about God. God is lover, not a fighter. The church, Christians, and God already have many misconceptions about them, we don’t need to add to them by illustrating a military type of video and say fire your guns (800 rounds per minute) for God.
3. It is my belief God doesn’t always ordain evil/military forces in the world to achieve His purposes. I would rather stay away from these dangerous military forces (no pun intended) when comparing them to the truths in God’s word. I would highly suggest to turn to the teachings of Jesus and fall more in love with Him and His ways.
on January 5th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Thanks for continuing this conversation over here. I will be interested to see what people think about this. I’ve been absolutely disturbed by some of the military imagery that has been coming out of current youth ministry models (most specifically Teen Mania’s “Battle Cry”).
While YouthBytes may be doing some good stuff, for me, producing videos like the one above do not quality as edifying to our youth.
On my post, some of the producers of YouthBytes have been chiming in - which is great - but it seems that there is this sense that violence exists everywhere, so it’s not like we’re doing anything they haven’t seen - we’re just giving it a better message.
On my post, Melissa wrote: “Shouldn’t the church offer an alternative to these images instead of implicitly condoning them even as they try to redeem them?”
The church DOES need to be providing an alternative, for sure. And while there do exist war images in the biblical account - I do believe Jesus came to bring peace and rise up a generation of peacemakers in our world today. And this video does not help with that effort whatsoever.
on January 5th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Scripture is also filled with sexual imagery,as well as models of families and marriage that are quite different from our current worldview. There is also a pervasive discussion of an economic model that is clearly NOT capitalism, one that depended on slavery for its labor.
There is rarely - if ever - attempts to “modernize the imagery so that it makes sense to today’s audience” for these threads.
on January 5th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
The trouble I have is that we seem to forget that we are CHRISTIANS, followers of Christ. And Jesus clearly rejects the use of violence. Don’t forget that it’s clear several (at least) of his followers are WAITING for him to raise and army and claim the throne. Jesus turns away. The violent images in the Old Testament are for a different people in a different time. Ours is a new covenant with God and we are given new “tools” to work with. The sword we are given is the word of God. Drawing comparisons between that and an 800 round per minute automatic weapon misses the point completely of the Gospel imo.
As for the “they see this all the time” argument I will respond with what my dear departed father said to me:
If everyone else jumped off a bridge would you do it too?
What happened to in the world but not of it?
Peace
JP
on January 5th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
1.) To the point that violence is a part of our story: the Bible seems to always, always move its reader away from violence. When we take a flat reading of the text (aka - without reading the text in its context) we miss this fact.
2.) When we use images like this we run the risk of glorifying things which the Bible does not wish to glorify. This will have a dangerous consequence.
3.) Are the means of communicating the message and the message itself connected? If this is so, then we have to ask ourselves if videos like this actually are “Christian”
on January 5th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Hey, I work for YouthBytes. I’m 17 and a Pastor’s kid from San Bernardino. I think that many people in both this blog and the blog on Pomomusings.com have taken this way out of perspective.
Since when did we decide that it was cool to cause division among our fellow brothers in Christ. YouthBytes, yes, may have one episode that is a bit inappropriate for some denominations, but if you look at YouthBytes as a whole, it clearly helps one build such a strong spiritual walk in their relationship with Christ.
Rather than looking at one video that has been taken completely out of reference and elaborated on for only God knows what, you should look at all the other great content that YouthBytes offers and how much God is using great content to reach a dying world. If we, as Christians, don’t become aggressive in these days where the world is being more aggressive to take people–youth–down into sin, who will? Nobody?
on January 5th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Joseph, thanks for your comment.
Just to clarify on the post. The post uses the YouthBytes as an example of military imagery used in youth ministry. If you re-read the post you’ll see that while we use it as an example the post is really about something bigger than that one video or YouthBytes. At least that is what I tried to convey.
My hope is that the post is asking a bigger question. It’s querying other youth workers about using military imagery in their teaching. Certainly there are plenty of events, curriculum, camps, and youth groups out there that use it all the time.
on January 5th, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Why does youth ministry need to have this discussion over and over again? Sheesh… It goes from Teen Mania to Halo 3 and now this. Personally, Ehud in Judges 3 is one of my favorite Bible stories. David and Goliath isn’t bad either. If Chad had used a sling-shot, would this discussion be any different? If David had a gun, I’m sure God would’ve led him to a stockpile of amo instead of a brook with stones.
Remember that Chad talks about fighting against the ENEMY (which we are called to resist no matter what your theology), but most of the people in these blog posts and comments are confusing his message with fighting against each OTHER (whom we are called to love).
on January 5th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Why does YM need to keep having this discussion? Maybe because there are some who are comfortable with it and others who aren’t?
Are you saying you’d be comfortable showing the video like in your youth group?
on January 5th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
Heck yeah I’d be comfortable to show this to my youth group. Where in this video does it say, “Go out and shoot people.”? This isn’t promoting violence. It would be one thing if they had Chad or the other guy in the video with body armor on and them getting shot at. They’re shooting watermelons and milk jugs. They’re saying just like in target practice it helps you learn how to use your weapon, the more you pray and worship and call on the name of Jesus, the more you’ll use and know how to use the weapons we’ve been given as Christians. I love the show and the videos. Great imagery and message. It beats some of the other stuff out there that bores me to tears. They use snakes to talk about sin, are we going to now have a discussion that we shouldn’t have snakes or that they’re demonic? That they encourage kids to handle potentially dangerous animals? They use rugby as an example of working with a team ie the church and fellow believers. A house divided against itself will not stand. Stop straining the gnat and swallowing the camel. If you have a problem showing this to your youth group then don’t. It’s not like they are saying use this or you will go to hell. Some people are fine with this. Last time I checked no kid decided to shoot up his school because he saw Chad Daniel firing a gun at watermelons.
on January 5th, 2009 at 5:17 pm
@Adam McLane: I actually DID show the full DVD of this episode to my jr. highers a couple weeks ago. I’ve seen the full version, unlike everyone else here.
YoutBytes does the best teaching for youth on video that I’ve ever seen. No one else comes close. I love them and use their videos almost every week. It’s sad people are so critical of the entire ministry based on a 60-second clip.
on January 5th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
Sure, we read of violence and hate, rape and infidelity… therefore, we should make a video of those things as well. Or at least that’s the premise behind some of these comments. For me the video doesn’t build community nor does it speak of the wedding language that the Bible so favors. The world is about war, we can’t escape it… I understand. But what if our message was different. What if our message, and our build up, was not to take the world and make it about God but instead to see things in the world that are all about God. Like service to others, conversations, unconditional acceptance and love, etc…. These are things we need to constantly and consistently teach about. Not how to fire off your spiritual weapons at 800 rounds per minute.
How do we teach/ model to youth how to love one another in the midst of hate? After all, the video says we have things that tell us how to put people in their place with our weapons of mass destruction (which still can’t be found). I have personally been on the receiving end of many of these weapons that people have(of course mostly I mean the verbal weapons). It’s not too fun, and it really doesn’t help in the spreading of our faith.
For me, I wouldn’t use them. I don’t think they are trash, they are just not what I believe our faith to be about. It’s great that he’s willing to jump out and make stuff that he believes in… after all we could all use more of that courage.
That’s my two cents, Jacob
on January 5th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
I wonder (with the video) how much of this is a cultural difference? I think we could all agree that things like hunting, shooting guns, etc. are perfectly normative in some areas an not in others. Having lived in both rural areas and urban I can tell you perspective matters!
Again, this question is about military imagery in general, not just the video linked above.
How much imagery is too far? How much (if any) is appropriate?
How do we teach the Biblical mixed metaphor of war/spiritual struggles in other ways OTHER than with military imagery?
on January 5th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
I totally get what your saying about the use of military imaging and not singling out youthbytes, although it is good advertising for them since I had never heard of them til now…
At any rate, there is nothing inapprotiate with the video. It is just using an object for illustration. Its important to understand that guns are not inherently evil. And I don’t believe they were trying to glorify them (neither were they trying to promote a bad lifestyle), but rather illustrate how powerful prayer is.
The reality is that the Christian life is a war, and sometimes it is apprpriate to relate to that picture given to us in scripture. Paul even spoke of it when he talked about the armor available Christians.
I think if we wanted to make a issue out things are inappropriate in youth ministry we should start with what kind of lyfe styles we are promoting to our young people. I know this may sound old school, but we should be much more careful with the tv shows we watch, music we listen to, and words/jokes that use around with our youth - they are more traps in those things than in military imaging.
on January 5th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
@Adam Mclane you make a great observation about cultural difference. I am sure (I am generalizing here) those in the Southern region would love this youthbyte devotion. If I showed this at my youth group my students would not take this video seriously or me seriously and would definately not resonate with my female students.
It simply fascinates me how much context, location, and culture shape our methods.
How do we teach the Biblical mixed metaphor of war/spiritual struggles in other ways OTHER than with military imagery?
To be honest, I don’t have a clue how to directly deal with this question. Here is why.
If I denied the military imagery, I would be lying to myself because the military rhetoric fits well in many Biblical accounts. For example, the Christus Victor atonement theory specifically aims at defeat and victory over the evil one. (1 John 3.8)
The great verse of Fight the Good Fight and the Ephesians verse of putting on our armor.
I think these metaphors are beautiful and when we try too hard to literally interpret these metaphors it gets complicated and our pacifist friends get mad.
We teach the actual metaphors themselves but we don’t use these violent metaphors as direct object lessons. There is a difference. The message can get lost in the direct object lesson.
Needless to say Youthbytes is probably making a killing now (no pun intended).
on January 5th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
i do not believe that capitalist militaristic flag-draped opinions belong in church. as we saw in the last election, this was sadly done by some.
using militaristic images is WRONG. it goes against everything that Jesus is and was.
what’s so different about christianity when the media we use replicates what teens see in everyday life?
god is bigger than guns and ammo and being “fired-up” power. god indwells and brings power from within.
on January 5th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
INteresting some of the assumptions that are being dumped on those of us who have problems with the video. For clarity’s sake let me note:
1: My comments are not aimed at Youthbytes as a company. ONLY at this video clip. As Tim noted I’ve only seen this one part. So I comment on this one bit.
2: This has NOTHING to do with my attitude toward guns. I think what I see them doing in the clip looks like a heckuva lot of fun and I’d LOVE to try it. I was born and raised in a non-hunting northeastern family.
3: I’m saddened, as always, when disagreeing with something done by a brother or sister is instantly branded as “causing division”. The scriptures are full of folks having disagreements and working them out through discussion.
Now having said that…
IMO I think the idea that using high powered automatic weapons as an object lesson for the power of prayer is a very poor idea. It is inconsistent with THE GOSPEL STORY, which curiously I believe is the true center of our faith as Christians. The power of prayer is the complete opposite of the destructive, coercive power of weapons of war. Yes we will defeat the enemy but with love and forgiveness and grace. Tell me which of those equates to shattering a watermelon with massive amounts of flying lead and maybe we can talk.
The idea of the post was to create discussion, to examine differing points of view.
on January 5th, 2009 at 8:24 pm
If Paul, who was one of the best communicators of all time (granted he had the inspiration of the Holy Spirit going for him) consistently used military terms describe the Christian life, why would it be “inappropriate” for us to use them today?
The author of Hebrews even referred to the Bible as a quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword… In context, wouldn’t that be equivalent to any powerful modern day weapon? (i.e. automatic rifle?)
This all goes back to two issues. First, the context in which military imagery is used… Many youth directors have no problem attempting to relate to various subcultures in the name of “reaching them where they’re at” by trying all kinds of “different and new methods.” Why do we raise eyebrows when someone attempts something that may connect with a certain part of the body of Christ - that we may disagree with?
The second issue is “appropriateness.” To some of our brothers and sisters in Christ, this is not inappropriate at all, but will totally make a great connection with them. Similarly, there are certain brothers and sisters who this would totally miss the mark with… Here’s is the big idea: that makes it ineffective, but definitely not inherently “inappropriate.”
One more thing… for those of you who want to talk about making a point only by demonstrating love and grace - how do you explain Christ’s response to the money changers in the temple?
Oh and by the way, it looks like youthbytes stock just went up 34%…
on January 5th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
i was just thinking…
with the cost of that 300 rounds of amo they could have fed, clothed, and given health care to a compassion child for at least one month.
to me that seems more gospel and able to piss off the devil than anything. take that evil angel i’m going to cloth, feed and take care of the hurting! boo-yah! bam! extreme slam!
(gosh it must be late)
on January 5th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
As the executive producer of this YouthBytes show, I am encouraged by the dialogue and surprised that so few people are going to the actual website http://www.youthbytes.org to view a full 6-minute episode. This one minute teaser is designed to get teens to come out to a youth meeting and to discuss the subjects of prayer, the Name of Jesus and Worship as tools God has given Christians in the spiritual battle of life. The actual Combat Weapons piece is about 8 minutes in length and we provide 3 and 6 minute versions as discussion starters to accommodate the different needs a church may find for the material. These are simply meant to be tools in the hands of a mature youth leader to discuss the very issues raised in this blog. The one-minute version sure seems to have gotten people talking and the longer versions will do the same in your youth groups. The notes that come with the videos give helpful Scriptures, group discussion questions, facts and figures about the subject and complimentary stories that can be used. The real power is in the hands of a youth leader or parent who can use this tool to engage meaningful dialogue. This is just one out of of 40 episodes covering a huge spectrum of relevant topics and subjects. I am heartened to see that the ability of a 60 second clip to arouse discussion is quite considerable and my prayer is that this may happen in youth groups all over the planet through this new YouthBytes resource.
on January 5th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
Military imagery pervades the Bible because of the cultural context in which it was written. Slavery and polygamy also pervade OT narratives, and there are several examples of God’s favor allowing people to gain more wives and slaves, and yet we wouldn’t think of promoting those things as appropriate cultural norms for today! Perhaps the fact that Jesus was executed by an oppressive military regime should give us pause to reflect on whether or not military imagery is appropriate for our youth.
on January 6th, 2009 at 1:04 am
Your pre-mature and judgmental post about this 60 second video has received the typical Christian response….a bunch of Christians sitting around gossiping and posting judgmental comments about a ministry (YouthBytes) and about a minister (Chad Daniel) that they know very little about.
I’m so amazed at how quick, most of you commenting, were to jump on the band wagon just from this one 60 second clip. Open your eyes people! Stop being so small minded. This kind of stuff where Christians are attacking other Christians is a prime example of why the world has very little respect for the church.
From what i can see of Chad Daniel and his YouthBytes, after doing some RESEARCH, it is something that is doing a lot of good in young peoples lives all over the USA and in other countries. Just type in “Chad Daniel YouthBytes” in Google and after clicking through 10 or 15 pages of Google links you will see a lot of good that Chad and his Bytes are doing for a generation that has to be reached, but cant be reached without some new methods.
Adam, next time your board and you want to start a witch hunt and gossip chain about another minister who is reaching people and introducing people in to a relationship Christ…..just sit back, find a mirror, and make sure there is no plank in your own eye to look at.
P.S. I only own one guns, and i rarely get time to shoot it, but now I cant wait to load that beautiful 12 gage up and destroy some watermelons.
much love,
Dan
on January 6th, 2009 at 6:36 am
I am fascinated by how this is seen by some as attacks on either youthbytes or Chad. In fact a quick review of those of us who dislike the imagery NONE of us mention either the company or Chad negatively. We disagree with their choice of imagery but that would seem a legitimate theological point.
Now we progress to accusations of a witchhunt, being small minded and gossips. Wow, apparently the commandment “Thou shalt not criticize” only runs in one direction.
The idea that this thread is an attack on youthbytes (which curiously the executive producer of the clip DOES NOT appear to perceive given his thoughtful and open response)or the program host is a red herring. It distracts from the actual discussion going on. And that’s a sad reaction from brothers and sisters in Christ.
on January 6th, 2009 at 7:39 am
Michael, I’m not sure that I would use the word “consistently” to describe Paul’s use of military language. He uses it occasionally. Plus I’m not aware of his flailing around with a sword to make his point. He also notes that while everything is lawful not everything is helpful. I don’t see this image as helpful.
The author of Hebrews appears to be pointing out the differences between scripture and the sword not the similarities.
Finally concerning the clearing of the temple let me tell you what I teach. Everything needs to be looked at through the lens of the WHOLE Gospel. Jesus’s reaction was specific to that time and place. It’s clear to me that the overarching imagery of the Gospel teaching is not one that is consistent with this kind of military imagery.
on January 6th, 2009 at 8:53 am
Taken in context, i.e., with a real, live, flesh-and-blood minister supervising the consumption of the video by teens, who could and would make the proper qualifications and explain the point, there’s absolutely nothing inappropriate about this video. Adam’s post about the topic was just a way for him to boost his readership on his blog. He loves to post “controversial” things (read: rabidly reductionistic posts severely critical of “fundamentalists”) to get a bunch of people checking his blog. That’s basically all POMOMUSINGS amounts to: a shotgun blast into a flock of harmless pigeons, all just to see them fly away.
Pathetic.
on January 6th, 2009 at 8:58 am
Jason- I don’t think a personal attack is necessary for the discussion. Is that how you’d like to be treated as well?
on January 6th, 2009 at 9:01 am
Personally, I’m really bothered by such a video, just as I don’t care for the military videos we are often shown as part of movie previews. I think this sends a somewhat confusing message about Christians and the faith. However, without knowing the rest of the story or about how the video was originally intended to be used, I would certainly not shut down a ministry over it. All of us have reached for the extreme on occasion to make a point - thankfully a lot of my “reaches” were before the time of youtube!!!
on January 6th, 2009 at 9:04 am
I’ve been in ministry for the past ten years in six different countries and I have to say that the response to this Youth Bites clip is indicative of the spiritual tragedy that is taking place in the United States and many other pacifistic, secularized nations.
The fact is that there has been a tremendous war going on since the beginning of time; a bloody, violent war between God’s army and Satan’s army over the souls of men and woman. This war has been carried out in the spiritual and in the physical. I know that it’s hard to swallow for most modern Christians but read the Old Testament and see a God that wiped out nations…men, women and children.
It is true that many sinful men have used the name of God to wage unjust wars. Under the new covenant our wars are mostly spiritual but there are plenty of times in history where God has blessed warriors with victory in battle. (i.e. George Washington, “The War of Independence” Abraham Lincoln, “The Civil War” Paul Kagame “Currently president of Rwanda and soul cause to the end of the genocide in Rwanda”)
The devils greatest weapon is his deception and anyone who doesn’t believe that there is a Kingdom that is advancing by force has already been deceived by the evil one. These types of people sit around and reason if there is even a war at all and nitpick over trivial things, like guns being used as a teaching tool. Give the youth of the world a little more credit to be able to see that Chad is just using the guns as an illustration. Don’t fear the guns, guns are not evil. They are nothing but tools that many brave men have used to save many civilizations against evil men. Focusing the attention on guns is just a diversionary tactic of the devil to take the focus of the evil in the hearts of men and women and off his much deeper and sinister plans to subdue the world in lust, apathy, and greed.
on January 6th, 2009 at 9:08 am
“Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
I think from the beginning Christians have wanted to amp up their Jesus. Having walked with Jesus for three years, the first thought following death and resurrection was, “Surely now we’re going to kick some tail.”
This material is directed at youth who “find church and the things of God boring.” My problem with this is simple. The call to a life that follows Christ is not a hyped-up, exciting thing. There’s not a lot of shock and awe in discipleship and love. And how do you keep their interest? At three minutes you’ll have fired 2,400 bullets and some of the novelty will have worn off. Do you go bigger? Mushroom cloud of witnesses?
I think the danger with this or anything that seeks to make Christianity “cool” or “more exciting” is in danger of having to perpetuate untruths about our faith. If I buy in to big and cool Christianity, it had better stay big and cool. Will your youth leave your program as disciples of Jesus or wondering when we’re going to restore the kingdom to Israel?
on January 6th, 2009 at 9:35 am
The youth of the Church in America are board and their parents are board because their churches are lifeless and boarding…in most cases. Following Christ is always exciting and anyone who says it’s not, is not following Christ. It doesn’t need to be hyped-up because it’s exciting and people who live it are exciting. That is why Chad is exciting; he is living a life for Christ. His videos don’t “amp-up” anything; they are reflections of a life of passion and purpose. The life that is surrendered to Christ is an unpredictable, exciting, uncontrollable life. God has the control and when that happens you better believe it is exciting. Boredom and apathy are byproducts of spiritual deadness.
on January 6th, 2009 at 9:48 am
Let me say this.
1. There is a Spiritual Battle.
2. This discussion is on Military imagery and not just Youthbytes etc.
3. The battle is real but really showing military weapons and usage is it necessary? Afterall we’re told to love our enemies.
4. Context is everything thus why even 30 second clips, 10 second clips, 6 minutes or one hour clips - We have to watch what we say how we are perceived and how we want Jesus to be perceived.
5. Perception is everything. Does the military image convey the Christian walk?
6. If God is love, can God hate? Sure. But what do military images convey? Hate, love? Honor, pride?
Sacrifice?
7. Sometimes, we, even if it seems like a good idea, our intentions will be misunderstood and thus we need to sometimes think How would a person from a different perceptive than mine take this?
8. What wins the lost? Honey or bitter taste?
Just a few thoughts
on January 6th, 2009 at 10:18 am
Jude 22 talks reaching some with compassion and Jude 23 talks about reaching others with fear or what some may perceive as “bitter”. But again this isn’t a discussion about reaching the lost.
I find interesting how this discussion has taken off in so many different directions and tangents. Some of you have made some great points points about many different topics (I like what Michael and Joel had to say), but again if you read the top of this page there are only three questions that Adam asked:
Q. Is this video, as Adam charges, inappropriate?
A. It is not inherently inappropriate. Guns are not evil, people can do some really bad stuff with them, but they can also save lives from really evil dictators, etc… (Kind of like prayer)
Q.How do you separate the Bible’s violent imagery and the violence our students see today in schools, on TV, etc.?
A. You separate it by it’s the purpose it’s used for. It all depends how you use it. If you really want to talk about violence, answer this - Many youth groups have played Halo… Need I say more? I think you’ll find that is violent game, but you won’t find this kind of discussion about the inapproriateness of Xbox.
Q. In a world that struggles to find relevance with the church, how do you think military imagery is viewed by non-Christians?
A. It may make a total connection with some people out there, especially those who are involved in the military or gun enthusiasts - they need Christ too. This would be a great discussion starter for some guys trying to start a military bible study.
Military imagery can be used wrongly at times, just like anything else can, but there’s nothing sinful with it.
on January 6th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Jason- I don’t think a personal attack is necessary for the discussion. Is that how you’d like to be treated as well?
Personal? Why is what I said written off as “personal”? It’s TRUE.
on January 6th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Couple Thoughts:
1. Man, women, child, cat, dog, cattle, King must be annihilated. Saul was punished for not fully exercising Genocide. (Yes I said Genocide)
2. Is this post really about Theology or freedom of speech?
3. Your opinion maybe correct/incorrect about the video but we all have the opportunity to give our opinions because of the capitalist militaristic flag-draping FREE country we live in.
4. …and Jesus Love You period
on January 6th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
I personally do not think that this particular video is that bad. It makes it clear that the spiritual weapons we have to fight the enemy are prayer and God’s word.
I think in out home schooled ultra sheltered churches we have tamed the bible a lot. I think it is ok to use military imagery, because it is in the bible. In 2 Timothy Paul uses imagery, it is not a story, it is a passage saying that we are to be like soldiers.
Let’s not neuter God’s word and create a tame God that earlier was referred to as “a lover not a fighter”. He is both people. You are for him or against him. He will through people into a lake of fire for not siding with him. Let’s not blur out His justice because it is scary but keep it in view in the joy that we have been set free by Christ’s blood.
on January 6th, 2009 at 5:50 pm
Fascinating discussion. I happen to agree with Adam’s thoughts on the video. I don’t see a place for such a video and wouldn’t show it at my youth ministry. Particularly, because it doesn’t seem to align with the teachings of Jesus, who tells Peter to put away his sword. Jesus never gives in to the lie of redemptive violence and encourages his followers to do the same. - See Rob Bell’s book “Jesus Wants to Save Christians.”
Would Jesus carry a gun?
on January 6th, 2009 at 7:49 pm
I am a U.S. Federal Agent and have known Chad Daniel for 17 years. All of you are blind guides … idiots disguised as wise men! Chad is a Warrior for God’s Youth who is apparently surrounded by a multitude cowards. If you haven’t picked up your sword to fight yet, you’re already dead men!
on January 6th, 2009 at 8:37 pm
I think this has totally been blown out of proportion. Many of you do not know Chad–I do. He is from South Louisiana where young guys are brought up around hunting, paintball and other sports requiring a gun.
This video is a metaphor- a parable–and Jesus told stories using things that the people of his time did not necessarily like talking about, i.e. Samaritans. Chad is not trying to create a new Columbine event.
I would definitely show this to my youth group and plan on it as we progress through the series. If a person as a youth director did not preview the video before showing it to his or her group, then shame on them. If you are offended by the video then don’t show it! Use some discernment.
I also do not agree with everything Rob Bell says on his videos, but I am not going to call him out as a heretic! I heard Doug Fields make some comments that I thought were inappropriate on one of his Podcasts, but I am not asking for his head to be on a platter either.
I have been in youth ministry 15+ years and am thankful that Youthbytes exists. The longer one is in youth ministry, the harder it becomes to find material to use with youth. These videos may not be for every youth group. Yes, there are cultural differences across the country as there always has been. The fundamental truths being taught in these videos are sound theology. I do not necessarily use terms like “spiritual warfare” but will talk about the battle of “good versus evil.”
I think everyone should come together and be thankful there are people like Chad who are making these videos for our youth and thankful that there are this many people replying to this subject working with youth to help make the heavenly kingdom come to our earth!
on January 6th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Who is this @ Jason guy?
Jason email me. We need to talk. zach.jeremy@gmail.com
on January 6th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
Interesting discussion, although I have to make one quick point about an earlier post.
Jesus told Peter to put away his sword because it was the will of the Father that Christ be crucified. He didn’t tell him to put it away because He was anit-weapons.
on January 7th, 2009 at 1:37 am
Gods kingdom is a kingdom of love. The waepon is service in love. See also the waepons in Ef 6. Yes, the metaphore is waeponry, but the actual thing is not military like. It is: truth, righteousness, the glad tidings of peace, faith, salvation, and God’s word. Now this is the best waepon: Praying at all seasons, with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching unto this very thing with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints;
Darby, J. N. (1996). The Holy Scriptures : A new translation from the original languages (Ef 6:13). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems.
on January 7th, 2009 at 7:19 am
Hey thanks for the discussion here. I hadn’t heard of youthbytes and was looking for some good resources and this seems to fit the bill. I really like the way that the video shows the power of a praying Christian, and the way to combat the enemy of our souls is to be men and women of prayer. Thanks for the blog, and thanks to youthbytes for a great video!
on January 7th, 2009 at 9:19 am
Here’s my two cents:
I judge your theology based on your ability to spell. (Horrible, I know. It’s not intentional, but it’s truthful.)
Context, context, context.
I love the men and women who volunteer to serve in our military; I love even more that I don’t HAVE to join it. Freedom is a good thing, even when it creates ugliness from those who have it.
I wonder if those outside the Church are turned off by the military imagery, or by the lack of unity found within the Body of Christ? My guess is the latter.
on January 7th, 2009 at 9:25 am
Kim, I tend to see if from the other side of the coin. I think that within Christianity there is a sense that if I disagree with you or your position that you become a “bad person” in my eyes. That’s something within evangelicalism that just needs to get changed.
A disagreement is much more a symbol of true unity than having a disagreement and never talking about it.
Instead, I think healthy debate and civil disagreements are what demonstrates a mature faith system to intelligent non-believers.
This thread shows that off wildly.
I know in my own church we value civil disagreements. We can discuss anything because we know that we all have the same goal in mind. When I see disagreements, like on this thread, it’s pretty clear we don’t all have the same goal. I wonder what some motivations are for being so negative on either side?
Just my $.02.
on January 7th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Adam,
I, too, think that too often disagreements within Christianity (at least, in my church) tend to equal, “I’m the smartest person alive, and you’re a jerk who has no worth in my eyes.”
Hmmm…perhaps it’s not the lack of unity that bugs me as much as it is a lack of respect for those who disagree?
Hooray for thinking out-loud, huh?
on January 7th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Adam,
I disagree with your statement “it’s pretty clear we don’t all have the same goal.” Hopefully we do all have the same goal and that is to create disciples for Jesus Christ. The way we choose to do so is varied. If you don’t like the video–don’t show it. I don’t like the KJV of the Bible, I don’t read it. That’s why there are so many versions of the Bible to reach people where they are and to get God’s word out to his people.
This video is just one resource. I tell my employees if you come with a complaint–come with a solution as well. Make your own video and if it is good I will buy it for my group! Contact Chad and talk to him.
on January 7th, 2009 at 11:41 am
Jon, good thought. Although I don’t totally agree and I think we can agree to disagree in a civil manner. Jesus was obedient to the point of death. God certainly knew it was going to happen but I don’t believe it was God’s “will.” What father would ever “will” his child to die? I know this opens the door to all sorts of theological debate but I just wanted to throw it out there.
Where does Jesus ever act violently towards someone? Flipping over the tables in the temple is not an example as one of my youth tried to use during a discussion. How then do you explain Jesus teachings on praying for those who persecute you and the examples of turning the other cheek, giving your cloak, and going the second mile?
Just a few thoughts. Grace and Peace
on January 7th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Andrew, remember when Jesus was praying in the garden before he was arrested? (Matthew 26:39) He said, Father, let this cup pass from me, nevertheless not as I will, but as you will.
It was the will of the Father that Christ be crucified. That’s why your earlier question, “What father would ever “will” his child to die?” demonstrates just how amazing God’s love truly is for us! Because He sacrificed His Son for us.
on January 7th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Jon, good thought man…thanks for adding to the discussion!
on January 7th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
Thanks, and it was all done civilly
on January 7th, 2009 at 10:21 pm
I have read the whole posting and all the attached comments and even followed the links to view even more of the particular video though I’m not paying to watch any extended versions.
I served for over 17 yrs as a Marine until an injury ended my military career and put me on the path of a full-time ministerial career. I have pastored for nearly 10 yrs from California to Boston to South Carolina (now) and I’m amazed at the various responses of this discussion.
For one as a military guy this is a “military video” in as far as it shows fighter planes on the tarmac and military style weapons; but none of the military target practice I have done during my 17 years consisted of watermelon or milk jugs. The idea of “Military Video” should get across two basic things: identity and discipline. This is paramount for all military services from those who fight in the air, on the seas, or on the land…identity is important. Identity marks who you belong to and who is the enemy. Discipline is very important because without it all you have is ‘guns and ammo’ and people shooting at whatever. Discipline and Identity set apart our military from the civilians-in-camoflauge.
Do I need to make the spiritual application with Identity and Discipline? I think most of us can see how a true lesson on the military would be beneficial and not sensational. While I understand the jist of these videos and the many others by YouthBytes (and others like them) I warn against sensationalism! The 800-rounds a minute is cool but not practical from a military standpoint…not many people can carry enough ammo to sustain that rate of fire in combat…so a spiritual application can be found as well but is it practical?
Regarding this other underlining discussion of the Biblical view on ‘military ideaology or terminology’…I’m disheartened that many claim the OT is relevant to another time and the NT doesn’t carry the same concepts regarding a militaristic view. I say please read the Book of Revelations…lots of fighting in there by Jesus and His Army. Of course, His Army is truly one with a focus on Identity and Discipline.
Oh, our Christian life would be better served without sensationalism and with a true focus on our “Identity and Discipline” as members of the Lord’s Army. May God richly bless and keep you!!
on January 8th, 2009 at 6:27 am
Don’t let your youth read Revelation 19, who knows what they might do…
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Better to stick with the “Precious Moments” Jesus. Far more palatable.
on January 8th, 2009 at 10:11 am
Hey Adam, I know its in a spirit of humility and respect for others in the Body of Christ that we can all grow through this. I can honestly say that when we made this video (I take responsibility as the Executive Producer), we had no intention of trying to promote violence or of violating the sensibilities of so many Christian brothers and sisters who would take offense at it. We were simply trying to find a creative way to illustrate the power of prayer, the Name of Jesus and Worship in the Christian life. I apologize to those who this offended. I know we have 40 one-minute video illustrations on our website - http://www.youthbytes.org - and each illustration has longer pieces and study notes which youth groups can use. Is it possible that we could say, “out of 40 illustrations YouthBytes chose, 39 were really good and one just did not demonstrate a sensitivity to the strong feelings in the church against guns and violence.” I feel like the whole 3-year effort we have poured our lives into to help disciple teens is being shot at like a watermelon!!!!
on January 8th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Berin -
As one of the folks who had concerns about the imagery let me be quick to point out that my concerns NEVER ran into questions about the sincerity of the effort. My concerns were simply about this one particular image/example. It makes me uncomfortable and I have questions about its appropriateness as a teaching tool for young people.
As you may have noticed, not everyone agrees, lol!
So what comes out of this long and sometimes rancorous discussion? Well, I’m now aware of Youthbytes (sorry, I had never heard of you before this)and you get some very valuable marketing feed back from potential customers. You may review it, decide that you are comfortable with the imagery and how it’s used and explained and keep it. Blessings on you!
I’m very sorry (and rather frustrated) that this was turned or seen by some as attacks on your company or your integrity. At least in my case it was NEVER meant as anything of the kind.
Peace
JP
on January 8th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
I completely agree with Jay.
My frustrations had nothing to do with youthbytes or any of the staff there.
I was responding to the video itself. It saddens me, that it was ever even perceived to be personal, or a personal attack.
on January 9th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
[...] been following the Youthbytes conversation first posted on pomomusings and now on the YS blog here and wanted to avoid a long comment so I’m creating my own post. Having only seen this clip, [...]
on January 12th, 2009 at 12:45 am
From all I’ve read about Jesus, I’d say he was a really radical and nonviolent kind of guy. He didn’t make mention of any spiritual war between good and evil. He didn’t carry a gun. He didn’t show his disciples how to use one. His “tool” was his heart, mind, spirit, and his very FAITH in the forgiveness of sins, the resurection of the body, and of life everlasting.
Now explain to me why a man who walked the earth preaching the love and forgiveness of God - who did not resist his own BRUTAL and bloody MURDER (and I will use that word) so that we all shall live eternally - would EVER see the need of a gun, a nation state, or a military as “tools” for paving a way to the Kingdom of God.
on January 12th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
@Scott - Maybe you should consider this Scripture from the New Testament describing Jesus
Revelation 19:11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
on January 12th, 2009 at 10:34 pm
Hey, good news. You can unsubscribe from this blog thread by scrolling to the bottom and clicking “manage your subscriptions.” You’ll have to create your own links to the YouthBytes site unless you privately contact Berin.