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Is Bigger Really Better?: A Youthworker Roundtable

Society, certainly seems to laud bigger. Big houses, big salaries, big cars. We trash our 25-inch color TV's in favor of big-screen models. Cosmetic surgeons make big money with our growing demand for bigger body parts. Bigger, we assume, must be better.

Bigger is also better in the church. There are a growing number of big ministries out there with big budgets and big numbers of the faithful filling pews. And what of youth groups? Are bigger youth ministries better ones?

Before you answer, take some time to read about three youth workers who--through a few thousand miles of intercontinental travel, some tears, and vastly different experiences--all found value in moving "down" the ministry ladder. They said it wasn't always easy to eschew the limelight--but in the end, they discovered, God lit candles big enough to illumine their own corners of the world.

• Though Rick Bundschuh is the full-time pastor of Kauai Christian Fellowship in the Hawaiian Islands, the 25-year youth ministry vet still hangs out with the "critters" in youth group. In addition to his stint as a youth resource director for Gospel Light Publications, Rick also led groups in San Diego and Palm Springs (poor guy) and is a part-time writer and cartoonist.
  
  
• Brian Coday is minister to students at Elmdale Baptist Church in Springdale, Arkansas. He's spent nine years in youth ministry, both in his native state of Oklahoma and in our president's old stomping ground. Brian also writes for his denomination and suffers on the white hot Springdale tennis courts when he needs "an escape" from his students.
  
  
• David Wright directed youth ministry at Christ Church of Oak Brook (a Chicago suburb) for nearly a decade, but since last April, he's been using his gifts at St. John the Baptist Church in Cheshire, for the Church of England. While adjusting to tea time, Big Ben, and the royal family, David also writes album reviews for this journal, refinishes old furniture, and endures homesickness now and again.

Youthworker: Were you determined from the start to run a large youth ministry, or did the circumstances just kind of arrange themselves?

Rick Bundschuh: I'd always thought in terms of having a large youth ministry, but I figured I'd have to really work to make that happen. So instead I just focused on kids and looked for a church that was crazy enough to hire me.

David Wright: Me, too--and I ended up finding one. My first church had to be a little nuts to hire a guy with no full-time experience, even though the group had only about 25 members when I got there. So it was easy at that point to envision and desire a large ministry.

Brian Coday: I landed my first job at a church in Bartlesville, Oklahoma. I wasn't sure I wanted the job at first--but I got more interested after I learned the average attendance each Sunday was 1,200 and that the youth group had well over a hundred kids and was moving fast toward the 200 barrier. That was my first church--I had no previous experience.

Were you one of many youth workers there?

Coday: No, I was the only one. My college friends all went to smaller churches in the area and stayed for a few years until they could find bigger churches, that kind of thing. But I never liked the idea of building relationships with kids and then just cutting it all loose to go some place bigger. I've never felt comfortable with the idea of moving up the ladder because I wouldn't view my job as my ministry--it would just be a stepping stone. And yet I ended up starting out at a big church anyway.

Wright: It's always disappointing to me when churches adopt a stepping-stone attitude about youth ministry. Even though my first church was big--about 4,000--I was hired as the youth director straight out of college, too, because the church viewed youth ministry as a way to get your feet wet--and I came cheaper, of course! But after almost 10 years and three kids of my own, I was still there. I think I surprised them.

So you were happy at a big church?

Wright: Oh yeah, but I didn't go looking for a big church, either. And even when I left for a smaller one, it still wasn't a conscious decision--"Okay, now I must go to a smaller church..." I wanted to work at a bigger church--and interviewed extensively at one--but felt called to the particular church I'm at now. The decision really boiled down to a sense that God wanted me to move to England, and the doors just opened up.

The funny thing, though, is that my church in England has only about 400 people--and that's considered very large by English standards. So even the biggest churches in England would have been a move down for me in terms of numbers.

What did you like about bigger ministries?

Wright: We could do what we wanted because we had the resources and numbers--we weren't dependent on anyone else. After a while our group began going to youth conferences and high-profile things. The group enjoyed the status of being one of the largest at these events. And a staff of 12 in full-time ministry gave me a lot of freedom. In my last year, I had a budget of $20,000. I hired really good bands for events and a song leader for Sunday night meetings. I had all the latest resources at my disposal. I went to seminars and conferences. There were always kids at meetings-even during the holidays. And because the church was so large, I could try new ideas--even with financial risk. And I didn't have a huge sense that my every move was being watched. In fact, most people in the church didn't have a clue as to who I was unless they had kids in the youth program. Also, my salary more than doubled in the time I was there.

Sounds pretty nice--nothing to sneeze at.

Bundschuh: I think also there's a kind of rush that comes with larger scale stuff. That's the case a lot with youth workers who get on the speaking circuit. Crowds get all pumped up and it seems like you're breaking new ground for them. There's definitely a sense of satisfaction from that. But there's a danger, too. I think whether you're in charge of a large youth group or doing the speaking circuit, notoriety is totally addictive. I mean, if you've got the biggest youth group in town, part of you really doesn't want to revel in it--but often a much stronger part of you does.

Were you ever that big shot youth worker?

Bundschuh: Almost. I made an intentional decision not to go the route of doing seminar tours and conference speaking.

When did those opportunities present themselves?

Bundschuh: A bit when I worked as a youth pastor, but after I moved to Gospel Light Publications and was producing youth ministry products, I really started making a name for myself. I mean, all I was doing was applying good youth work logic to Sunday school curriculums--and all of a sudden youth workers were saying, "Hey, I like this stuff!" That opened some doors, and the next thing you know, I'm speaking here, speaking there. It was a subtle build at first, but then the pace really picked up. I went from town to town and spoke at some camps--my first taste of the road. Then I started getting invitations from people at these camps and conferences to speak at other places.

Did the sudden demand unsettle you a bit?

Bundschuh: Yeah! It caught me by surprise because I didn't think of myself as a youth worker with a national voice. Plus I started getting opportunities to write--discovering along the way that people automatically give authors more credibility than they probably deserve. And it just kept building.

Then I came to a crossroads. I found myself starting to say, "You know, all I need is a little push here and a little intentional lean there--and I could be a star." Then I said, "Nah, I don't want to do that."

Why not?

Bundschuh: My family, first of all. The road is not fun. You're away from home a lot--that's a requirement for success as a circuit speaker. You've got to be a road animal, there's really no way around it. I also realized that any relevance in my message came from my experiences working with kids. Even when I was at Gospel Light, I volunteered for my local church's youth group because I knew that to have any kind of integrity with the things I was talking about, I needed to be in the trenches. I had to get my hands dirty. And I kept saying, "Hey, I keep going back to what I did as a youth worker--not to what I'm doing now."

Sure it's fun to deliver a really polished seminar, talk, or message before a big group of people. And when you're doing the same one 20, 30 times a month, you can get pretty darn good at it--and still manage to sound spontaneous and relaxed. But I said, "You know, this is great, and everyone thinks I've got it all together, but there's way more joy for me working with kids than being a road animal." So I decided to move to Hawaii.

Something everybody should do!

Bundschuh: Well, it's not all surfing and sunbathing. My wife has to work full time and I have to supplement my church income with writing and cartooning just to make ends meet. Our church is just too small to afford a real salary for me.

But you wouldn't trade it for a national voice, even a speaker's income?

Bundschuh: No I wouldn't. I'm far more content doing what I'm doing now. Everything has a price. Road animals pay a price, and youth workers in the trenches pay a price. But I'm much happier seeing the results firsthand. A lot of kids from my past youth groups are in missions or heading their own youth ministries--I like that. That's the ultimate for me: seeing my students multiplying themselves.

So I intentionally avoided greater prominence--because there really is a starmaking thing out there in youth ministry circles, and it's easy to latch into it.

But wouldn't you say that youth workers benefit from bigger voices speaking into their lives?

Bundschuh: Yes and no. At conventions, some of the big-name youth workers aren't very approachable. And some of them I do speak to have seemed pretty self-absorbed. The youth workers I find enriching are simply running their local church youth groups--like me--and we can just talk or goof off together.

I go to Nashville for a convention every year and meet with the same group of youth workers--just to hang out, talk, and goof around. We're all dealing with the same real stuff, you know? And it's been a long time since some people I know on the speaking circuit have done any youth work. I'm really just not that impressed.

It seems that, by and large, entrenched youth workers may enjoy what circuit speakers have to say--only with the caveat, "But they're not doing it every day."

Coday: Hold on. I consider myself an in-the-trenches youth worker, and although I've seen some of what Rick is talking about, I don't know that the people doing the speaking circuit are so self-absorbed.

Bundschuh: I'm not saying that--only that a couple of them surprised me.

Wright: You know, I think it'd be easy for speakers to let the whole thing go to their heads, especially if thousands of people are looking up to them and learning from them. All of them could easily be self-absorbed.

When you moved to smaller situations, was it because the initial attraction of a big ministry wore off--or did God tell you to get out?

Wright: God spoke to me through a series of events. First, my church wouldn't support my ideas to incorporate missions for high schoolers or a support group for parents of teens--even after 10 years. And the support wasn't adequate. We couldn't get enough volunteers, enough bodies to go around. People figured they could just toss money in a plate instead. Finally a former staff member who saw what was ahead in the life of the church told me to leave--and I listened to her. At the same time God had been nudging me toward England. I was curious to see what was going on in youth ministry there, and then one day, the strangest thing landed on my desk: literature from a youth missions organization that was sending youth workers to other countries as trainers. Stats said 98 percent of the world's trained youth workers are in the States, leading only 4 percent of the world's youths.

Moving was a tough decision, especially after finding a very large church outside Washington, D.C., with a great package, a wonderful youth ministry--all that. But after I decided I wanted to help in England at a church that happened to be much smaller, the doors just flew open.

Coday: I feel like God was telling me to move on from Bartlesville. And even though the situation there wasn't great, I still fought God.

What was the deciding factor?

Coday: The decision was basically made for me--I was asked to leave. But even before that point, I equated leaving with quitting. And I wasn't going to quit, no matter what--even if God told me to! So God had to intervene and say, "Look, I told you to quit, I told you to move on, and you're going to move on. You need to do what I'm telling you to do."

I learned a lot from that experience, and after a while I saw that leaving was the right move. The staff members didn't really get along, and there were many broken promises. But the nastiest incident involved five sets of parents who put together a list of things I was doing wrong and gave it to the pastor without talking to me first. I still have that list someplace.

Bundschuh: I frame lists like that.

Coday: I didn't frame it, but I remember that one of the points was that my wife and I "jealously guard our private time together."

Wright: Shame on you!

Bundschuh: I can see why you'd want to do that.

Coday: As a big church, one of its disadvantages was its big business way of running things. I hope it's turning around now, but the corporate style wasn't conducive to my ministry.

Wright: I don't run into many youth workers who come from churches that operate like that--but that's my background, too. Plenty of people still tell me I was crazy for hanging in there all those years at Oak Brook. While I think corporate principles can help larger churches, they create challenges as well.

Now, Rick, you didn't exactly leave bigger for smaller--except in the context of deciding to use a local voice rather than a national voice.

Bundschuh: Yeah, it was a matter of deciding what was more important. There wasn't a big flash of light. I was a single parent at the time, trying to raise two little kids. While there were financial benefits from speaking, I wouldn't have any time for my family. The circuit wasn't the direction I thought was wise to go--for my family or for the integrity of my work. And I knew how quickly I could lose touch by being away from hands-on youth ministry. My strongest abilities are building relationships and hanging around with kids--not telling others how to do it. So I thought I'd just hang out with little critters again.

Coday: I don't think that kind of decision takes a big flash of light or incredible insight. I don't want to despiritualize the thing, but I think that in many cases, God has already told us what to do.

When you moved to a smaller situation, when things weren't as big or flashy anymore, did you have your doubts? How did the change affect your self-esteem?

Bundschuh: It wasn't difficult for me. I knew if I needed to jump into a big church with a big salary, I had the track record. The difference was that I moved to a Hawaiian island of 35,000--less populated than the typical small city. Still I knew there were more than enough kids for a youth group--enough to easily overload my circuits if I wanted to work with them all--and I figured we'd just turn into the mouse that roared, which is sort of what happened. So in the almost 10 years I've been here, I did a lot of hard work with kids. My church and youth group aren't big by mainland standards--but for Hawaii, we're monsters.

Wright: I'm in a similar situation in England, where big churches are also considered small by American standards. Still I don't think my self-esteem has been wrapped up in running a big ministry, even when I was in a megachurch in suburban Chicago. In fact, I was crying out at the time for a real adventure that would stretch my faith. I wanted to go where ministry would be harder and I would have to rely on more prayer. There are very few youth workers in the Church of England, and even fewer with 10 years' experience, but I'm a rookie in many ways, too. I'm back to a group with 25 kids, and it's humbling being in the heart of England, where the people are culturally more English than Londoners--there's much to learn. I do know though that I'm needed here, and that I'm unique because of my level of experience.

I recall, too, that in my last few months in Oak Brook, the church hired a replacement for me who had a track record of going for bigger and more prestigious positions every few years. That helped me because I reflected on the meaning of God's calling versus man's ambition.

Coday: Yeah, I had to deal with thoughts of "You know this isn't a very good career move" when I changed to a smaller youth ministry. That's something I verbalized with my wife before we moved, but it didn't take very long for us to see that we needed to do it regardless of what others might think.

What did you learn when you went smaller? Was anything reinforced or learned anew?

Coday: We'd moved from the 1,200-strong church to a smaller one in Claremore, Oklahoma--but only by a few hundred people. We were there about a year and a half when the pastor--whom we liked very much--started getting pushed out. And I felt for him because the same thing happened to me at my previous church. Then my present church called and we moved four months later, even though it was a dinky church by comparison--just 450 people--and I figured I'd be getting less money. So we prayed all summer to make sure we weren't running from anything. And when it came right down to it, we didn't really have a reason to leave, other than we felt it was God's will.

But we're happier here than we could've ever imagined. The way this church treats me, my wife, and my staff is just phenomenal. And to my surprise, I'm being paid more here--really almost double--than what I got at my first church. We were just made for this church, a smaller church. Still, being "somebody" in Oklahoma felt good, too--it was fun to have the biggest group in town and all the resources I'd need at my disposal.

Wright: The idea that my impact came from relationships--not just from the programs I led--was reinforced. I also found in England a sense of community that was lacking in the States and in larger churches. It was like God saying, "Dave, I want to meet your needs." That was really incredible.

I also learned that I can't do all the things I did in a large church in the States because they won't work here. But most of all, I've learned to let God take care of me through others. When I moved to England, I took a 50 percent pay cut. Still people have been good to us, and my family prays about our most basic needs--and it's exciting to see how God answers our prayers.

Bundschuh: It's been harder for us financially, too, because, like I said, my wife has to work. That's been a downer, a real bummer. I'm definitely happier from the standpoint of ministry, but I don't have the satisfaction of being able to completely provide for my family.

So, is bigger better? Worse? Neither?

Wright: Bigger is just different. It's harder in some ways because more people place demands on you when you're in a bigger ministry. There's a great burden that goes along with having a big budget to manage and loads of kids on a trip, far away from home. That's more stressful than watching a dozen kids for a week. And people in large churches usually expect large results--huge programs with huge attendances, even if it means cutting back on content. I'm finding, though, that I'm more cared for in a smaller church--which enables me to do greater things because the church helps me stay spiritually healthy.

Coday: I think the Lord is showing my wife and me that bigger isn't necessarily better. Yeah, there are some benefits to being bigger--bigger budgets, bigger salaries, more notoriety, all that stuff. But the bottom line is that all of us have to consider where we're most effective--and I think I'm most effective where I'm most comfortable, happy, and content. And I know you're supposed to be content in every circumstance, but it's a whole lot easier without pressures placed on you by the church--especially a larger one.

Bundschuh: I would say that one person can only work with a given amount of people. Okay, so you're in a megachurch and you've got a thousand kids in your youth group--you can't work individually with a thousand kids! You're going to either work with your staff or volunteers, which means you're not so much a youth pastor as you are a pastor to adult leaders or an administrator. Or you might end up working with the cream of the crop or just certain types of kids.

But if you're in a smaller church and you're hustling, you'll end up working with about the same amount of kids as youth workers in bigger churches--and touch them all. It's just that the big ministries have all the trinkets, status, and the big vans and big salaries to go along with it.

Coday: Emphasis on big.

Bundschuh: Right. And they also get the bigger headaches. The forms and the hassles and the lawsuits and the rest of the rigmarole. So they can have it.

Wright: I no longer think of bigger as better, and I'm not sure if I ever did. Like you said, Rick, the pressures are different. But if I return to a large church someday, I'll certainly have a different perspective after having been in a small church. I'll be more oriented toward working with other churches and advancing youth ministry in a broad sense--not necessarily for my own advancement.

Bundschuh: The best thing is that even though officially I'm the pastor, I'm still able to work with kids. And I love it because I'm finding out about their lives--and they're blowing my mind all the time. So sometimes the best place to work with youths is in smaller venues. The thrill of a big ministry is a cheap thrill. I would trade that every time just for the joy of seeing some kid from a really wacked-out background getting straightened out with God and begin living a productive life. That's where it's at.